Stumper
One Man Band
Tj. Hmmmm.... I missed the part where we all said that we had never used "burnt" oil. Some of us have-and know it is a STUPID idea. :angel:
Biodegradable bar oil...... anybody use it?
- Thread starter NYCHA FORESTER
- Start date
Help Support Arborist Forum:
Tac-less oil leads to decreased bar and tip life. And BTW "tac" is a real thing. Go to a major oil companys web site and do a search for Visitac.
FWIW I dont think inhaling vegi oil is good and I dont think inhalling Dino or vegi oil is good.
FWIW I dont think inhaling vegi oil is good and I dont think inhalling Dino or vegi oil is good.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
I'm glad 'Tac' is a real thing
My bars <u>don't</u> wear out faster. I used bar oils with Tac for 7 years, and straight vegetable oil for the last three, going on 4. From this personal experience, I noted no difference in bar wear between the two oils, and have never needed to replace a bar tip.
Claims are made all the time, in all parts of the selling of anything. Features are part of ANY product. They are 'selling points'. Marketers call this 'product advantage', where there are a number of similar competitive products, and one has some claim or feature, or spin, or gimmick that gets people to buy more of it than of its competitors. The manufacturers hope the consumers will take the information hook, line and sinker, and never question it..... just keep on buying their stuff.
Do you say this because you have personally experienced this, or is that the general claim that we've all come to understand. I'm serious, bwalker, did you find this to be true when you were using tacless oil and comparing bar wear with oil that has tac? or is this someone else's words coming out of you? Ahh, let me guess, you <i>sell</i> bar oil !bwalker said:
My bars <u>don't</u> wear out faster. I used bar oils with Tac for 7 years, and straight vegetable oil for the last three, going on 4. From this personal experience, I noted no difference in bar wear between the two oils, and have never needed to replace a bar tip.
Claims are made all the time, in all parts of the selling of anything. Features are part of ANY product. They are 'selling points'. Marketers call this 'product advantage', where there are a number of similar competitive products, and one has some claim or feature, or spin, or gimmick that gets people to buy more of it than of its competitors. The manufacturers hope the consumers will take the information hook, line and sinker, and never question it..... just keep on buying their stuff.
http://www.functionalproducts.com/
There's absolutely no doubt that tackifiers reduce the amount of oil expended to lubricate the bar/chain when they are added to the oil and the flow rate is properly adjusted. If you browse around the URL I provided, you'll see they make many types of the product. What it boils down to is whether it's either a cost-effective thing to do (does it save you enough oil over time to at least cover the cost of the additive?) or, if you're environmentally-minded, it doesn't matter quite so much if it does cover its own cost or not because it's allowing for less oil being dumped into the ecosystem.
A lot of people don't believe we're really capable of putting a man on the moon, either.
Putting at least enough oil into the bar/chain will always lubricate it sufficiently unless maybe you're using something entirely unsuitable, such as used motor oil.
It looks like "Tac" might be part of a trade name for a line of tackifiers: http://www.addapt-chem.com/HTML/Products/lubricants.asp
Glen
There's absolutely no doubt that tackifiers reduce the amount of oil expended to lubricate the bar/chain when they are added to the oil and the flow rate is properly adjusted. If you browse around the URL I provided, you'll see they make many types of the product. What it boils down to is whether it's either a cost-effective thing to do (does it save you enough oil over time to at least cover the cost of the additive?) or, if you're environmentally-minded, it doesn't matter quite so much if it does cover its own cost or not because it's allowing for less oil being dumped into the ecosystem.
A lot of people don't believe we're really capable of putting a man on the moon, either.
Putting at least enough oil into the bar/chain will always lubricate it sufficiently unless maybe you're using something entirely unsuitable, such as used motor oil.
It looks like "Tac" might be part of a trade name for a line of tackifiers: http://www.addapt-chem.com/HTML/Products/lubricants.asp
Glen
Last edited by a moderator:
NeTree
Addicted to ArboristSite
Glen, it occurs to me that the biggest function of any tackifier is to enable the lubricant to adhere past the nose, where its inertia has a tendancy to throw the lubricant off rather than carry it around to the bottom where the work is really being done.
So in essense, less becomes more, and the woods and waters are better off for it.
So in essense, less becomes more, and the woods and waters are better off for it.
Tree Machine, I have run oils other than bar and chain lube, but not long enough to form any oppinion of value. I do have work expierance with industrial chains and their lubrication. I might also add that you might want to talk to forum member Jokers in regards to the decrease in sprocket tip lif he got while using hydraulic oil as bar lube.
In short a tac agent is there for a reason. If it where not usefull a oil company would not be putting it in the blend.
In short a tac agent is there for a reason. If it where not usefull a oil company would not be putting it in the blend.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
I'm glad to know about Glen's motorcycle chain, and I respect your having used different lubricants on industrial chains.
Did any of your industrial chains remotely resemble a bar and chain on a chainsaw? Something that spins up to ten or twelve thousand RPM with continuous RPM-dependent oiling and such?
For the sake of simplicity, can we just talk about lubricating a chainsaw's bar and chain?
Did any of your industrial chains remotely resemble a bar and chain on a chainsaw? Something that spins up to ten or twelve thousand RPM with continuous RPM-dependent oiling and such?
For the sake of simplicity, can we just talk about lubricating a chainsaw's bar and chain?
sedanman
Just cut the piano!!
Let's see, the ENGINE turns 13,000 rpm with a 7 tooth sprocket it moves 7 drivers with each revolution, 70 driver chain would turn 1,300 revolutions per minute. Centrifugal force tries to pull the spinning loop into a circle, this force is countered by the drive sprocket and the nose sprocket, so there's really only forceful sliding contact where the chain meets the wood and is resisted by the bar, ususally the bottom of the bar, I want tac in the oil to HOPEFULLY allow SOME of the oil to make the 180 degree turn at the bar nose to get to where it's needed.
Paul, don't forget that the slack in the chain is greatest coming off the drive sprocket, and for some reason the chain tends to want to continue traveling in the arc as it comes off that sprocket, so it slams into the bar rails before it can even get to where it could pick up more oil again. There are <i>two</i> places where the chain is centrifugally spitting the oil off itself and I really prefer having some oil still on it after both of them. The only way to ensure that when using non-modified oil is to copiously pump it.
Jim, have you ever compared straight oil with the same oil plus tackifier in any real world scenario, or are you just speculating?
Glen
Jim, have you ever compared straight oil with the same oil plus tackifier in any real world scenario, or are you just speculating?
Glen
sedanman
Just cut the piano!!
The one thing that I will concede is that the rpm of the chain is meaningless. The chain speed is measured in feet per second or miles per hour since it is essentially linear travel. The chain on most saws with a 7 tooth sprocket is travelling nearly 60mph.
Last edited:
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yes, I've used non-tac oil; back in the days when I ran regular bar oil and I would run out, I would then use regular 10-W-40 motor oil til I got a new jug. Is this the sort of comparison you ask of?
OK, I'll be more comparative, and just for kicks, you guys can try this.
Using your tacified oil, gun the chainsaw with the tip near a clean surface. You will see spinoff.
Using regular non-tacified motor oil, gun the chainsaw with the tip near a clean surface. You will see spinoff. Using vegetable oil, gun the chainsaw with the tip near a clean surface. You will see spinoff.
But we already knew that.
Glen says this,
Spinoff is highest at the highest RPM, and diminishes as the RPM's diminish (as does the flow from the pump). Professional and novice saw operators do not run their saws at high RPM's 100% of the time, which, I'm quite certain, nobody does. On the way up to full power, oil is injected and distributed. On powering down oil is injected and distributed. During these times, even though oil injection is less than at full speed, so too dimninished is the degree of spinoff.
If you want to ensure the bar stays lubricated, using non-tacified oil, just tickle the trigger lightly a time or two between cuts. Personally, I have never had to concern myself with that detail.
OK, I'll be more comparative, and just for kicks, you guys can try this.
Using your tacified oil, gun the chainsaw with the tip near a clean surface. You will see spinoff.
Using regular non-tacified motor oil, gun the chainsaw with the tip near a clean surface. You will see spinoff. Using vegetable oil, gun the chainsaw with the tip near a clean surface. You will see spinoff.
But we already knew that.
Glen says this,
but overlooks the obvious.
Spinoff is highest at the highest RPM, and diminishes as the RPM's diminish (as does the flow from the pump). Professional and novice saw operators do not run their saws at high RPM's 100% of the time, which, I'm quite certain, nobody does. On the way up to full power, oil is injected and distributed. On powering down oil is injected and distributed. During these times, even though oil injection is less than at full speed, so too dimninished is the degree of spinoff.
If you want to ensure the bar stays lubricated, using non-tacified oil, just tickle the trigger lightly a time or two between cuts. Personally, I have never had to concern myself with that detail.
Stumper
One Man Band
I've been reading you guys' arguments for a while now. Tell me if everyone agrees with this: Tacking agents are viscosity modifiers designed to increase film strength and reduce sling off. Whille there is no denying that chainsaw bar and chain is used in a total loss system (all the oil in the tank goes out the chain/bar and is lost at some point so that refilling the reservoir is needed on a regular basis), Tacking agents are intended to modify the way in with the lube is lost- allowing more of the oil to round the bar nose and drive sprocket prior to its replacement and elimination. While a large amount of oil is reassuring and offers some advantages in preventing and or dissolving resin deposits on the chain only a very small film is needed to reduce friction between polished surfaces. More non tack oil is probably lost at the bar nose on the first revolution than the percantage of tackified oil. Since the essential amount of oil is usually less than we choose to run (we want a good measure buffer) the greater loss of non-Tack oil at the first turn may not increase bar rail wear. In the case of vegetable oil, it is a better solvent for most saps and resins than petroleum derived oils. Even if less oil is carried to the underside of the bar on each revolution The washing action of the oil slinging off keeps a film on the rivets and prevents build up of resins on cutters and tie straps very well. Tacking agents are added for a reason and have potential benefits but have proven over the course of the chainsaw's history to NOT be essential.
Okay ,pick it apart. :angel:
Okay ,pick it apart. :angel:
Crofter
Addicted to ArboristSite
Stumper; Thank you!
Tac additives are not viscosity modifiers. Viscosity modifiers are polymer based additives that expand with heat so as to keep oil from thinning out to much. Tac additives make the oil "tacky" or sticky regardless of viscosity.
Chris J.
Addicted to ArboristSite
Thank you to those of you who
use the environmentally friendly oils & take your used dino oil to be recycled. Every little bit helps.
use the environmentally friendly oils & take your used dino oil to be recycled. Every little bit helps.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
And Thank YOU, Knot hole. And Walker for describing the differences in terms and properties, and Mr Stumper, who said,
Thank you all for all the tidbits of information. This gets to the real nuts and bolts of this topic.
I wonder if the $18 a gallon enviro-oil has tac additives?
and THAT is another truth.
Thank you all for all the tidbits of information. This gets to the real nuts and bolts of this topic.
I wonder if the $18 a gallon enviro-oil has tac additives?
Stumper
One Man Band
Jim, Yes, the high priced enviro oils have tack additives.
Ben, Thank you for distinguishing between viscosity modifiers and tacking agents. FWIW tacking agents effect viscosity -particularly at temperature extremes-and are also polymer chains that are mixed into the oil but I think your distinction is proper industry terminology.
Ben, Thank you for distinguishing between viscosity modifiers and tacking agents. FWIW tacking agents effect viscosity -particularly at temperature extremes-and are also polymer chains that are mixed into the oil but I think your distinction is proper industry terminology.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Thank you, Mr Stumper. I kinda thought that might be the case. So Tac has the ability to change corn oil from a $5 a gallon commodity you can get just about anywhere, to an $18 a gallon, environmentally conscious, ecologically responsible, sometimes-hard-to-find specialty product.
Huh. Tac has the ability to make money go out of my wallet at almost quadruple the rate it does now. Tac is truly amazing stuff.
Huh. Tac has the ability to make money go out of my wallet at almost quadruple the rate it does now. Tac is truly amazing stuff.
Stumper
One Man Band
Well Jim, what is you want-to sling the oil off the chain at the first turn or sling the money out of your wallet at the first opening? 
