Tree Machine
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Huh, whaa....?
Biodegradable bar oil...... anybody use it?
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Jim,
I'm still quite puzzled by your demeanor in this thread. Nobody is declaring untrue whatever it is you're trying to defend.
My synopsis is:<blockquote>you - "tackifiers are useless and no better than snake oil"
me - "not true; tackifiers perform a valid and useful service"
you - "oil on = oil off"
me - "true; but the cycle happens less rapidly when using tackified oil (of whatever kind) and modifying the pump output accordingly"
you - "tackifiers are useless and no better than snake oil"</blockquote>I don't know what to say any differently, but I'll try again. Maybe you'll actually read it this time...
Using your grocery store oil is cheaper than using tackified specially-blended bar oil when you're running your pump wide open (or at any setting greater than what you actually need). If the cost balance works out, you could save even more dinero if you added a suitable tackifier and turned your pump down accordingly.
Are you actually arguing against anything in that last paragraph?
Glen
I'm still quite puzzled by your demeanor in this thread. Nobody is declaring untrue whatever it is you're trying to defend.
My synopsis is:<blockquote>you - "tackifiers are useless and no better than snake oil"
me - "not true; tackifiers perform a valid and useful service"
you - "oil on = oil off"
me - "true; but the cycle happens less rapidly when using tackified oil (of whatever kind) and modifying the pump output accordingly"
you - "tackifiers are useless and no better than snake oil"</blockquote>I don't know what to say any differently, but I'll try again. Maybe you'll actually read it this time...
Using your grocery store oil is cheaper than using tackified specially-blended bar oil when you're running your pump wide open (or at any setting greater than what you actually need). If the cost balance works out, you could save even more dinero if you added a suitable tackifier and turned your pump down accordingly.
Are you actually arguing against anything in that last paragraph?
Glen
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
No argument in this last paragraph whatsoever.
I could argue it, except I don't have enough information to validate the argument. The argument would look like this: I can use corn oil off the shelf, AND turn my oiler down, and still have it lubricating the bar and chain just fine. I really don't know this for certain because I have never personally tried it. Like many saw operators, I leave the oiler set right where it was when it came from the factory. I do believe, however, based on the oiling performance over the last three years using straight vegetable oil, that I am already over-oiling the bar and chain. Just haven't felt the burning desire to turn the oiler adjustment down a bit. The savings could be stupendous.
So, Glen, since you brought it up in the last paragraph, and I am intrigued as to how this will work in real-use, what suitable tacifier would you suggest I use in my canola oil before I go turning my oil pump down and saving some <i>real</i> dinero? Are you using something you're not telling us about? No? So you have information on what this 'suitable tacifier' might be? No? Mebbe where to buy it in blisterpacs to be added to one gallon of vegetable oil? How much will it cost to treat a gallion of veggie oil? Will it's cost be offset by the diminished amount of oil I will then need to use? Is the tacifier itself toxic? Or are you just tossing out a hypothetical 'this should work' scenario?
I really DO want to believe in the utility of tacifiers, however they have disproven their necessity to me, over time, as applied to a chainsaw's bar, chain, tip, sprocket and oiler mechanism
I could argue it, except I don't have enough information to validate the argument. The argument would look like this: I can use corn oil off the shelf, AND turn my oiler down, and still have it lubricating the bar and chain just fine. I really don't know this for certain because I have never personally tried it. Like many saw operators, I leave the oiler set right where it was when it came from the factory. I do believe, however, based on the oiling performance over the last three years using straight vegetable oil, that I am already over-oiling the bar and chain. Just haven't felt the burning desire to turn the oiler adjustment down a bit. The savings could be stupendous.
So, Glen, since you brought it up in the last paragraph, and I am intrigued as to how this will work in real-use, what suitable tacifier would you suggest I use in my canola oil before I go turning my oil pump down and saving some <i>real</i> dinero? Are you using something you're not telling us about? No? So you have information on what this 'suitable tacifier' might be? No? Mebbe where to buy it in blisterpacs to be added to one gallon of vegetable oil? How much will it cost to treat a gallion of veggie oil? Will it's cost be offset by the diminished amount of oil I will then need to use? Is the tacifier itself toxic? Or are you just tossing out a hypothetical 'this should work' scenario?
I really DO want to believe in the utility of tacifiers, however they have disproven their necessity to me, over time, as applied to a chainsaw's bar, chain, tip, sprocket and oiler mechanism
I have never (except in the rare pinch) used anything other than packaged bar/chain oil with tackifier, so I cannot answer your question other than by providing the links to a couple of manufacturer's sites earlier in the thread. They should be able to help you find answers to your availability questions. Regarding the cost offset and/or savings, and almost every other question you ask in those last few sentences, I think they're pretty much the same questions I previously asked you; or at the least are items I'd brought up as points of possible consideration for which I did not know the answer.
I don't know how you can possibly say their necessity has been disproven to you since you admit you've never tried them, much less adjusted your oiler.
This discussion, it seems, includes environmental aspects by the very nature of the topic, and using more than one needs, of whatever lubricant, cannot be good for anybody or anything except maybe the oil producer and the user's bar and chain.
Glen
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
I appreciate you paraphrasing my words correctly. <b>"they have disproven their necessity to me, over time, as applied to a chainsaw's bar, chain, tip, sprocket and oiler mechanism</b>.glens said:
See, I am only speaking for myself, not making some broad, shotgun generalization to all. This is just my experience, and I am sharing it openly.
As far as the tacifiers having disproven themselves to me, that goes back to my first 7 years as petroleum-based bar oil user. in a pinch I would use 10-W-40 motor oil and it worked fine. I believe motor oil formulations have viscosity agents, but not tacifiers. Correct me if I'm wrong. The motor oil seemed to work fine and I have used regular motor oil many dozens of times over the years. Not every local hardware store stocks bar oil, and I've never been willing to go way out of my way (especially mid-job) to hunt down bar oil with tac.
Veggie oil also works fine. To add a tacifier means the veggie oil would work more fine? You're saying I could then use less of it. Fair enough. If it would not add a lot of cost to the off-the-shelf corn oil, I'll give it a whirr for a year. I'll be more than glad to turn my oiler down a bit. So, you suggest this, can you follow with a source of veggie oil tac agent?
Enable javascript (I hope it's safe to do so there, but their web designer seems a bit clueless, so who can say?) and look around the "Functional Products" link up in my post (currently) number 45. I'd originally found the internal link to the tackifier page (which mentions veggie oil) via google, and arrived at that "home page" URI from within the site. I guess it would be in the "products" link...
BTW, how do you see my "their necessity has been disproven to you" as somehow being functionally different from your "they have disproven their necessity to me"? hahaha!
Glen
BTW, how do you see my "their necessity has been disproven to you" as somehow being functionally different from your "they have disproven their necessity to me"? hahaha!
Glen
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
EXCELLENT! This is incredible how all this information can be pulled out of the air and presented for all to see. The magic of the internet.
Cool, I must take some time to look through that stuff. What I'll look for first is the LD50 on the tacifier. That is it's rating of toxicity. It'll reflect how willing you are to breath in a mist of it. It'll give me a ballpark as to how 'hot' it will make my naturally-based bar oil.
Hot? I mean, like, when you're spinning tacified oil off while working a tree over, or near water. I think you know what I mean.... How the water takes on that irridescent, multi-color sheen? Beautiful as it is, we know that it is lubricant spreading across the surface of the water. I would give this a 'hot' rating (toxic potential) of 100, since 100% of it is persistent, petroleum-based hydrocarbon oil.
Veggie oil would have a 'hot' rating of 0, since it is a 12-16 carbon triglyceride. It is non-toxic, and we can go as far as to say 'food' and 'essential nutrients', but the edible status of the oil is not our topic here. Safflower, corn, soybean, peanut, sunflower, canola all have no toxic 'hotness', but if I were to add 'Tac', then it would (assuming Tac is petroleum-based). The LD-50 , and the amount I would need to add to a gallon of veggie would describe how changed the oil is from an environmental standpoint. How much it costs you is a financial standpoint. Does it allow you to turn your oiler down to appreciably less than with just straight veggie oil?, make bars last longer? Efficiency / maintenence standpoint
These are good points to nail down. Great contributions from everybody!
Cool, I must take some time to look through that stuff. What I'll look for first is the LD50 on the tacifier. That is it's rating of toxicity. It'll reflect how willing you are to breath in a mist of it. It'll give me a ballpark as to how 'hot' it will make my naturally-based bar oil.
Hot? I mean, like, when you're spinning tacified oil off while working a tree over, or near water. I think you know what I mean.... How the water takes on that irridescent, multi-color sheen? Beautiful as it is, we know that it is lubricant spreading across the surface of the water. I would give this a 'hot' rating (toxic potential) of 100, since 100% of it is persistent, petroleum-based hydrocarbon oil.
Veggie oil would have a 'hot' rating of 0, since it is a 12-16 carbon triglyceride. It is non-toxic, and we can go as far as to say 'food' and 'essential nutrients', but the edible status of the oil is not our topic here. Safflower, corn, soybean, peanut, sunflower, canola all have no toxic 'hotness', but if I were to add 'Tac', then it would (assuming Tac is petroleum-based). The LD-50 , and the amount I would need to add to a gallon of veggie would describe how changed the oil is from an environmental standpoint. How much it costs you is a financial standpoint. Does it allow you to turn your oiler down to appreciably less than with just straight veggie oil?, make bars last longer? Efficiency / maintenence standpoint
These are good points to nail down. Great contributions from everybody!
Why would you make all those comments before reading the information?
Once again, you're arguing against nothing. Read and note the subject matter; "Biodegradable Tackifiers". Perhaps the better choice of the two products listed is also listed as a "Food Grade Tackifier".
You make points that are in themselves valid, but they're impertinent to the discussion.
Glen
Once again, you're arguing against nothing. Read and note the subject matter; "Biodegradable Tackifiers". Perhaps the better choice of the two products listed is also listed as a "Food Grade Tackifier".
You make points that are in themselves valid, but they're impertinent to the discussion.
Glen
Stumper
One Man Band
Hmmm, Glen did you read your link? " the polymers themselves are not readily biodegradable". That doesn't mean they are horribly toxic. In fact, Jim should note that being derived from petroleum doesn't equate to toxic. However, if un tackified oil proves adequate I have to say "why bother/". Personally, I am not convinced that tacking agents are unnecessary on long bars used in big cuts under heavy loads. I am convinced by my own experience thet they aren't needed on a 12' Power Pruner bar or 16 inch climbing saw bar.
Yes, I saw that. Immediately following, it says the products themselves are roughly 90% readily biodegradable. Assuming the bio-oil being used is 100% readily biodegradable, that makes 10% of 3%-10% of the total, tackified, not "readily" biodegradable. That's 0.3%-1% of the total as possibly "bad" (assuming the unmodified oil was 100% okay). If use of the tackifier is good for savings of money and/or slung oil, that sounds like it could be a reasonable compromise.
Glen
Glen
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
What it says is that this tac product listed is comprised of at <i>least</i> 90% vegetable oil.
I realize these are only MDS sheets, but there is no LD-50 on the (maximum) 10% active Tac agent.Also they don't list what the tac agent is, only that it is 'proprietary'. Fair enough.
Just doing rough math, if this tac product is 10% active tac, and you mix it into veggie oil at a ratio of 9 parts veggie oil to one part tac product, that comes out to 1% active tac agent in your running lube.
OK. I don't know if that's high or low, bad, good or great. What I do know is you're paying for is 90% vegetable oil. They say that. In fact, more correctly, what they say is, oh, what the heck. I've circled it for you. You read it and interpret it:
I realize these are only MDS sheets, but there is no LD-50 on the (maximum) 10% active Tac agent.Also they don't list what the tac agent is, only that it is 'proprietary'. Fair enough.
Just doing rough math, if this tac product is 10% active tac, and you mix it into veggie oil at a ratio of 9 parts veggie oil to one part tac product, that comes out to 1% active tac agent in your running lube.
OK. I don't know if that's high or low, bad, good or great. What I do know is you're paying for is 90% vegetable oil. They say that. In fact, more correctly, what they say is, oh, what the heck. I've circled it for you. You read it and interpret it:
Stumper
One Man Band
Shifting focus a bit. At 60 degrees my vegetable oil flows easier than 30wt petroleum bar oil. At 100 degrees also but at below freezing temps the veggie gels. The tackified petroleum oil pours like molasses but it pours. Jim does the corn oil you use refuse to pour on cold winter days?
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
That is an excellent question Mr Stumper. During my climb this afternoon, it was 14 degrees F (-10 C). I had gassed and oiled my saw right before I went up.
The properties of veggie oil below freezing are rather interesting. It still flows, but it flows in a weird way. It is sort of gellish, but soft, not thick, not a heavy viscosity. Ya almost have to stick a jug in the freezer and give it a whirl.
So, after you've frozen your corn oil, get ready to squeeze some into a cup. It is OK to stow the veggie oil upside-down. What I want you to do, just for entertainment, is take a chopstick, or just use a round file. Squeeze the frozen oil out gradually, and at the same time, insert the thin rod into the mouth of the plastic oil bottle. Wiggle it. Disturb the gellish body with stirring or vibration, and the gellish semisolid just falls. It takes on a more liguid property immediately, no heat needed.
Tomorrow I will test this at a more extreme end, it is supposed to be around 6 degrees, F tomorrow morning (-14 C). This little trick with the file end works really well.
The properties of veggie oil below freezing are rather interesting. It still flows, but it flows in a weird way. It is sort of gellish, but soft, not thick, not a heavy viscosity. Ya almost have to stick a jug in the freezer and give it a whirl.
So, after you've frozen your corn oil, get ready to squeeze some into a cup. It is OK to stow the veggie oil upside-down. What I want you to do, just for entertainment, is take a chopstick, or just use a round file. Squeeze the frozen oil out gradually, and at the same time, insert the thin rod into the mouth of the plastic oil bottle. Wiggle it. Disturb the gellish body with stirring or vibration, and the gellish semisolid just falls. It takes on a more liguid property immediately, no heat needed.
Tomorrow I will test this at a more extreme end, it is supposed to be around 6 degrees, F tomorrow morning (-14 C). This little trick with the file end works really well.
Stumper
One Man Band
Interesting. When it has gelled I've just used the nasty oil. I'll hav eto try the stirring.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
That is all you need to know about veggie oil at those temperatures. The oil takes on that gellish property, but does not truly become thick. The looks of the oil change dramatically, however, the viscosity changes very little and it still lubricates fine at subfreezing temps. How can I tell that the lube properties are fine at those temperatures?
First off, as soon as you start the saw, all 'temperatures' change, as far as the lube and the saw are concerned. In probably under a minute, your saw is warmed up, the oil is liquid again, hunky dorey.
In answering the question, though, if you take the frozen saw, before it's started up, take the chain and with your hand, move it along the bar, that is the way you can tell. With veggie oil, the chain moves as though it was at any above-freezing temperature, no real change. With dino oil, viscosity is a function of temperature; the colder, the thicker; the chain does not want to move along that bar until it is warmed up.
At subfreezing Winter temps, guys are half-tempted to thin their petroleum based bar oil, and cut it with diesel, or kerosene to thin it out.
GUYS.... stop the insanity. It really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really, is this simple.
One half of one pair of chopsticks will get you through the Winter. Disturbing the 'frozen' oil is not even necessary- I just came onto the idea the other day and it worked.
Can we go back to the tackifiers for the moment. Ben Walker has much experience in this area and has much to teach us. We still don't know what tac is. The MSD sheet lists the ingredient as 'PROPRIETARY'
First off, as soon as you start the saw, all 'temperatures' change, as far as the lube and the saw are concerned. In probably under a minute, your saw is warmed up, the oil is liquid again, hunky dorey.
In answering the question, though, if you take the frozen saw, before it's started up, take the chain and with your hand, move it along the bar, that is the way you can tell. With veggie oil, the chain moves as though it was at any above-freezing temperature, no real change. With dino oil, viscosity is a function of temperature; the colder, the thicker; the chain does not want to move along that bar until it is warmed up.
At subfreezing Winter temps, guys are half-tempted to thin their petroleum based bar oil, and cut it with diesel, or kerosene to thin it out.
GUYS.... stop the insanity. It really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really, is this simple.
One half of one pair of chopsticks will get you through the Winter. Disturbing the 'frozen' oil is not even necessary- I just came onto the idea the other day and it worked.
Can we go back to the tackifiers for the moment. Ben Walker has much experience in this area and has much to teach us. We still don't know what tac is. The MSD sheet lists the ingredient as 'PROPRIETARY'
Jim,
I still don't see how you're saying anything different than I am yet I somehow get the impression you're arguing with me about it.
For what it's worth, that company also makes an additive for the vegetable oil to help with its properties at such low temperatures.
<tt>:</tt>)
Glen
I still don't see how you're saying anything different than I am yet I somehow get the impression you're arguing with me about it.
For what it's worth, that company also makes an additive for the vegetable oil to help with its properties at such low temperatures.
<tt>:</tt>)
Glen
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
We must be in agreement? Then, cool!
Good information! I mean, great information. Check out these technical data sheets. Guys, i believe this may be <i>the</i> tack additive that bio-oil manufacturers use. They are very informative data sheets. The V570 mentions specifically it's use in saw chain, and saw guide oils. It also gives usage information, and is quite specific. The V584 is considered 'food'grade. the 570 is the one for chain saw oil.
Thanks for searching this info, Glen.
Good information! I mean, great information. Check out these technical data sheets. Guys, i believe this may be <i>the</i> tack additive that bio-oil manufacturers use. They are very informative data sheets. The V570 mentions specifically it's use in saw chain, and saw guide oils. It also gives usage information, and is quite specific. The V584 is considered 'food'grade. the 570 is the one for chain saw oil.
Thanks for searching this info, Glen.
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