Breaking in a new faller

[northmanlogging]

write offs are a catch 22 in my book.

yes you can write off your expenses and wages are an expense, but they are also a really big expense, so the benefit of saving a few hundred at the end of the year in taxes vs payin someone 40,000 ish, and another 10,000-30,000 to l+I sorta doesn't make up for it.

 

[bnmc98]

For a small outfit it makes more sense, or it did at least for us to contract out instead of hire an employee. I started out as an employee. and they were able to almost double my wage by having me become self employed.
That was when I was cutting for them by the hr only. Then I got a machine and now work by the ton cutting and skidding. Which is only better on some days. The thing about a small operation it that you can only put out so much wood in a day, so you can really only afford so much of an employee before it breaks you. Out here with short one log trees, and low market value, a gypo can lose their shorts real quick if they pay a guy too much.
On the flip side, with the tax incentives for a person making a low wage (federally) someone who is just falling and has low overhead can make a killing as an independent compared to what they would make hourly as an employee, and the contractor themselves has less expense. Win win.

on a side note, as a faller, I will have to say a buncher really makes more sense than tipping by hand. Here's why that I've noticed. your time from ground to landing is greatly reduced because it can bunch into bundles. On smaller trees that can mean hooking 3-5 times as many logs in one drag. its 2-3 times faster at cutting than by hand. Also, they can lay the tree the way they want for easier extraction. I still cut, but only steeps and large stuff, the rest of the time I pull cable and put the pedal to the metal. Thats what makes me really appreciate the buncher. Hooking hand felled singles sucks, unless they are big.

The catch 22 is that yes its faster, but we are all starving cause there aint no money in logging here so we all run wore out pieces of junk that we work on all the time and pour money into like they pour oil out of. So is it really that much more efficient? dunno.
some days its better to just grab a saw and git er done.

 

[Skeans]

write offs are a catch 22 in my book.

yes you can write off your expenses and wages are an expense, but they are also a really big expense, so the benefit of saving a few hundred at the end of the year in taxes vs payin someone 40,000 ish, and another 10,000-30,000 to l+I sorta doesn't make up for it.

Overhead is always a big concern especially when you're talking about a hand cutter the liability kills you especially if you're on company ground. Here where I am the last tower clear cut they did was tethering there's not many cutters left and not many companies have in house cutting crews anymore. Myself or my dad do all the hand cutting because of the insurance unless we bring in a contractor. Now for what we do on company ground the policy is big one of the concerns is fire the other is the chance of loss of life, a few years ago a local company lost a guy from chain shot in a harvester fluke deal but now I have to plug every snow hole with 1/4" plate minimum.

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[Skeans]

For a small outfit it makes more sense, or it did at least for us to contract out instead of hire an employee. I started out as an employee. and they were able to almost double my wage by having me become self employed.
That was when I was cutting for them by the hr only. Then I got a machine and now work by the ton cutting and skidding. Which is only better on some days. The thing about a small operation it that you can only put out so much wood in a day, so you can really only afford so much of an employee before it breaks you. Out here with short one log trees, and low market value, a gypo can lose their shorts real quick if they pay a guy too much.
On the flip side, with the tax incentives for a person making a low wage (federally) someone who is just falling and has low overhead can make a killing as an independent compared to what they would make hourly as an employee, and the contractor themselves has less expense. Win win.

on a side note, as a faller, I will have to say a buncher really makes more sense than tipping by hand. Here's why that I've noticed. your time from ground to landing is greatly reduced because it can bunch into bundles. On smaller trees that can mean hooking 3-5 times as many logs in one drag. its 2-3 times faster at cutting than by hand. Also, they can lay the tree the way they want for easier extraction. I still cut, but only steeps and large stuff, the rest of the time I pull cable and put the pedal to the metal. Thats what makes me really appreciate the buncher. Hooking hand felled singles sucks, unless they are big.

The catch 22 is that yes its faster, but we are all starving cause there aint no money in logging here so we all run wore out pieces of junk that we work on all the time and pour money into like they pour oil out of. So is it really that much more efficient? dunno.
some days its better to just grab a saw and git er done.

I agree completely there's day the harvester is done you're cold wet cussing throwing wrenches wish you could just go grab a saw and get back to the simple days but those days are few in between anymore with all the rules and regulations they've put on all of us.



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[Jet47]

Thing with the hotsaw guys is they'll try anything, at least once, so there's plenty of YT video of guys taking on oversize with bunchers which is a cool demo of the machine and all, but, over the course of a whole sale that would not be a cost-effective pace after breaking machinery designed for smaller timber.

Exactly.
Machines getting the oversize timber down is not the difficult part, its limbing them and still having a working machine at the end of the day. Hence our small outfit leaves anything around 24" and bigger for me to cut the old fashioned way.

 

[Skeans]

Exactly.
Machines getting the oversize timber down is not the difficult part, its limbing them and still having a working machine at the end of the day. Hence our small outfit leaves anything around 24" and bigger for me to cut the old fashioned way.

24" I can do that thinning the clear cut guys have processor heads that'll do 40", others I know don't care and walk the machine with head from top to butt.

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[northmanlogging]

Overhead is always a big concern especially when you're talking about a hand cutter the liability kills you especially if you're on company ground. Here where I am the last tower clear cut they did was tethering there's not many cutters left and not many companies have in house cutting crews anymore. Myself or my dad do all the hand cutting because of the insurance unless we bring in a contractor. Now for what we do on company ground the policy is big one of the concerns is fire the other is the chance of loss of life, a few years ago a local company lost a guy from chain shot in a harvester fluke deal but now I have to plug every snow hole with 1/4" plate minimum.

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is that telling that the big companies care more about fire then loss of life?

 

[Skeans]

is that telling that the big companies care more about fire then loss of life?

In some ways yes, the safety and personal safety is on us as a contractor as well as fire safety but they can't be sued if an injury occurs on their lands.

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[ChoppyChoppy]

For a small outfit it makes more sense, or it did at least for us to contract out instead of hire an employee. I started out as an employee. and they were able to almost double my wage by having me become self employed.
That was when I was cutting for them by the hr only. Then I got a machine and now work by the ton cutting and skidding. Which is only better on some days. The thing about a small operation it that you can only put out so much wood in a day, so you can really only afford so much of an employee before it breaks you. Out here with short one log trees, and low market value, a gypo can lose their shorts real quick if they pay a guy too much.
On the flip side, with the tax incentives for a person making a low wage (federally) someone who is just falling and has low overhead can make a killing as an independent compared to what they would make hourly as an employee, and the contractor themselves has less expense. Win win.

on a side note, as a faller, I will have to say a buncher really makes more sense than tipping by hand. Here's why that I've noticed. your time from ground to landing is greatly reduced because it can bunch into bundles. On smaller trees that can mean hooking 3-5 times as many logs in one drag. its 2-3 times faster at cutting than by hand. Also, they can lay the tree the way they want for easier extraction. I still cut, but only steeps and large stuff, the rest of the time I pull cable and put the pedal to the metal. Thats what makes me really appreciate the buncher. Hooking hand felled singles sucks, unless they are big.

The catch 22 is that yes its faster, but we are all starving cause there aint no money in logging here so we all run wore out pieces of junk that we work on all the time and pour money into like they pour oil out of. So is it really that much more efficient? dunno.
some days its better to just grab a saw and git er done.

Some days I think it's better to not put pants on and stay on the couch, but what fun would that be? Haha!

Running "well loved" equipment kind of sucks, but it's nice to not have payments too. With a skidder, delimber, dozer, shovel loader, buncher, forwarder, harvester, etc all in the mortgage price range new it becomes an issue of being a slave to the machine to make payments... I'm mean 10k+ a month, that's $$$$.

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

Exactly.
Machines getting the oversize timber down is not the difficult part, its limbing them and still having a working machine at the end of the day. Hence our small outfit leaves anything around 24" and bigger for me to cut the old fashioned way.

Around here 95% of trees larger than around 24" dbh is junk... rotten out, hollow rind. Sometimes the rind is still firewoodable, all depends.

Most of what grows here is harvest ready in the 20-40yr area, after that it's dying.

 

[Westboastfaller]

It's like getting chickens to produce. Every once in a while you have got to go down there and shake your axe their way

 

[Gypo Logger]

When I was looking for a job on the west coast in 1981, I saw an add in the paper: Wanted: Feller Buncher.
So I called and said I'd like to learn how to fell and bunch, I have my own chainsaw and pulp hook.
The only answer was the click of the phone.

 

[Woody912]

I been training me for 40 yrs and still not happy with my progress. On the bright side, still on the green side of the grass

OK, does this one keep me employed?

 

[bitzer]

Was that like a quick cut n run?

 

[Westboastfaller]

OK, does this one keep me employed?View attachment 548631

I don't even know what to say.
If I needed three guys and 10 people sent a pic, and that's what I had to go on as well age and 'experience' considered? then I don't believe you would be further considerd. What do you think Bitzer?[/QUOTE]

 

[bitzer]

I don't even know what to say.
If I needed three guys and 10 people sent a pic, and that's what I had to go on as well age and 'experience' considered? then a don't believe you would be further considerd. What do you think Bitzer?

[/QUOTE]
You probably already know what I think.

 

[Woody912]

I don't even know what to say.
If I needed three guys and 10 people sent a pic, and that's what I had to go on as well age and 'experience' considered? then I don't believe you would be further considerd. What do you think Bitzer?

[/QUOTE]

I was pretty happy with that one, back cut was at ground level so I got all of the merchantable wood there was. Quite a bit of lean with several widowmakers so I did not hang around to chase the hinge. Not sure if it is worth anything anyway, red oak died last summer, probably from wilt. Butt end looks purty after I trimmed it

 

[northmanlogging]

I was pretty happy with that one, back cut was at ground level so I got all of the merchantable wood there was. Quite a bit of lean with several widowmakers so I did not hang around to chase the hinge. Not sure if it is worth anything anyway, red oak died last summer, probably from wilt. Butt end looks purty after I trimmed it[/QUOTE]

You really looking for a critique, cause I'm sure there are several that would be more then happy to oblige.

Also trimming butts is wasting time, time it would take to put in another face... or size up another tree etc, better to have a shallow overhand face, or use a humboldt/underhand face, with a flush back cut.

 

[Woody912]

I did a Humboldt today on a twin tree that I vertical cut for 3' and then borecut. I retired from my day job when I was 44. Cut firewood for 40 yrs but started dropping trees about 5 yrs ago, 50 or so per year. Cannot cut a level line to save my soul, just trying to get better and not leave an embarrassing stump! Cut one tree today, sawed the dead top and took it to 85 yr old neighbor, cut some grapevine, jump started my tractor ( -5 here this morning) and drug logs to my landing. X mother in law gives me free rein to hunt her ground, and trees are dying so just trying to get her a little revenue ( she don't need the money) Local sawmills will ding you if they have to trim butts.

 

[northmanlogging]

Hence making your falling cuts level...

All mills ding you if they have to trim anything