MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
Errr, I thought we were talking a'boot cutting a big stump?
Bucking Tricks?
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Errr, I thought we were talking a'boot cutting a big stump?
T
topnotchtree
Guest
Like I said it is just a little trick that most poeple may not even bother with, but I was just showed that last summer and it does work for me. Any little thing I can do to make my job easier, I am all for!
i have put sticks in a cut to keep it open on the ground, and 50' up. i've used coins, carabiner, part of wallet while in the tree for same.
i think properly the differance between a peavey and a cant hook is that a peavy has 2 sharp points; 1 on on the hook and 1 on the stick's end. A cant i beleive is a squared log, so is more finished and a cant hook would make less marks on it, is safer too!
i try to land a tree on brush, and/or choose places to cut that won't are easisest not to hit the ground. i've taken 6" or so diameter logs made wedge on one end and squared the other, then pounded under tree. Or cut all your cuts on one side; cut off any stobs towards roll side, place line across spar and hitch to good stob and roll large tree over like that with truck, finish cuts.
Another help is to look at what points the log is supported on, watching how you take pieces to keep the most pressure off the piece you would take next. If it had a contact point on one end and the middle; i might end up switching ends every cut, using the see-saw to keep as much pressure off cut as possible. Done right, at right positions, you can cut straight down on the heavy end, and the piece will lift off the ground as the weight seperates, making the heavy end gradually lighter through the 1 cut, then switch ends.
i follow Dent's strategies for felling, same as for bucking sometimes (without wedge). i'll make a notch in the compressed side (up) then cut to hinge. The most compressive power will usually be straight up, so to not have to face the most intense force, i will make a face that aims towards 10:30 or 1:30 instead of 12 o'clock. Just like felling to the side of the lean, doesn't let gravity exert it's full force, by not feeding into it's maximized direction. The thick part of my taperd hinge goes down, if i use a kerf Dutchy on one side for the 'swing dutchy' effect; the kerf goes topside, to push away from the most intense direction of force off my chosen path, just as in felling..
i agree that having the wedge pounded in tight on one side places most pressure 180o from wedge, as the most leveraged point. i think that all ways and always, the most leveraged position is on the axis of the force. The most leveraged compression or tension will be each on either end of that straight line axis of force; so must always be looked for. Wether that leveraged force stands for or against ya, depends on what you are doing, how you allow it to enter the equation.
On the stump question, i jest go backwierds as in pic. in my usual lys-dexic; lack of style!
If pix are too small, 'feel' around lower right corner with mouse for enlarge button to appear, then click it.
i think properly the differance between a peavey and a cant hook is that a peavy has 2 sharp points; 1 on on the hook and 1 on the stick's end. A cant i beleive is a squared log, so is more finished and a cant hook would make less marks on it, is safer too!
i try to land a tree on brush, and/or choose places to cut that won't are easisest not to hit the ground. i've taken 6" or so diameter logs made wedge on one end and squared the other, then pounded under tree. Or cut all your cuts on one side; cut off any stobs towards roll side, place line across spar and hitch to good stob and roll large tree over like that with truck, finish cuts.
Another help is to look at what points the log is supported on, watching how you take pieces to keep the most pressure off the piece you would take next. If it had a contact point on one end and the middle; i might end up switching ends every cut, using the see-saw to keep as much pressure off cut as possible. Done right, at right positions, you can cut straight down on the heavy end, and the piece will lift off the ground as the weight seperates, making the heavy end gradually lighter through the 1 cut, then switch ends.
i follow Dent's strategies for felling, same as for bucking sometimes (without wedge). i'll make a notch in the compressed side (up) then cut to hinge. The most compressive power will usually be straight up, so to not have to face the most intense force, i will make a face that aims towards 10:30 or 1:30 instead of 12 o'clock. Just like felling to the side of the lean, doesn't let gravity exert it's full force, by not feeding into it's maximized direction. The thick part of my taperd hinge goes down, if i use a kerf Dutchy on one side for the 'swing dutchy' effect; the kerf goes topside, to push away from the most intense direction of force off my chosen path, just as in felling..
i agree that having the wedge pounded in tight on one side places most pressure 180o from wedge, as the most leveraged point. i think that all ways and always, the most leveraged position is on the axis of the force. The most leveraged compression or tension will be each on either end of that straight line axis of force; so must always be looked for. Wether that leveraged force stands for or against ya, depends on what you are doing, how you allow it to enter the equation.
On the stump question, i jest go backwierds as in pic. in my usual lys-dexic; lack of style!
If pix are too small, 'feel' around lower right corner with mouse for enlarge button to appear, then click it.
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Oregon_Rob
ArboristSite Guru
All good ideas and I have used many of them. I have a question though. When poking around the OSHA site, I came across how to on the bucking section.
Why would you need to make 4 cuts as shown? Why wouldn’t or shouldn’t you just make a short cut in from the top and then the rest up from the bottom?
Why would you need to make 4 cuts as shown? Why wouldn’t or shouldn’t you just make a short cut in from the top and then the rest up from the bottom?
tony marks
Addicted to ArboristSite
well necessity is the mother u know..
but i never have worried much about a stump butt...didnt even know there was a rite way..other than just shoving it off when its cut..not sayin im rite just that it never was an problem..
but i never have worried much about a stump butt...didnt even know there was a rite way..other than just shoving it off when its cut..not sayin im rite just that it never was an problem..
Rob, that is not a strategy that i have used a lot cuz i don't think it works right; especially with compression not just to the top side of the spar; but also compressed down it's whole length (like nosed down towards ground compressing head towards feet as well as top compression, or any other complications thrown in. For general purpose i'll wedge, and cut down; sometimes just learning, using what ya have etc. i'll let someone else tie up the wedges; and see if i can ninja in amongst the forces and get clean seperation without a wedge. And i've learnt a lot playing that game, got my saw stuck a few times, but learned to feel through the saw for tension a lil too.....
This strategy of cutting Rob shows, to me is on the same principle, but opposite desired effect of centerpunching a hinge; for the purpose of eliminating the stiffer,older center wood; and hinging on the flexible outer fibers.
Here, i have always thought that the intent was the same principle in reverse. In your pic i take the top to be a face cut notch up; and the cuts to be programed to stress/overload and thereby snap the older/stiffer inner wood by loading all of the force to that 'brittle' area. Some fellas would make the top just a kerf face even, so to me looking for overload snap; i believe cut 5 would bore in and down towards freedom as bottom widened. If cracks along spar length,dry; i might nose in and out to freedom (like 5) in all cuts but the face fearing shifting/splintering. When i messed with that strategy.
But i prefer wedges for just cutting straight down with wedge in top; or as i have shown cuts previously. As i do it 'my' way; it is the same as i do a lot of my serious cuts as i have shown. So i tap all that experience and make new, closeup observations of the same strategy put to different angles at the same time.
The same strategy working from so many different angles; is what has brought me to singling and polishing mostly that strategy at different angles.
Actually i call 'my' bucking strategy a "Dent's"; because it stems from those felling lessons in his book. But actually he recomends bucking like your picture cuts 1-3, then upwards through cuts 4 & 5 as one cut, to fold, but faster fold as that small amount of stretched wood from the bottom will cut easy, and for fast fold, lots of tension in that smaller confined strip tailing from ccenter block down through the area of cuts 4 & 5 in your pic..
i think that if maximum gravity power of compression is encountered at TDC then the picture you show (cutting away from center on final cut to suddenly overload remaining wood is good to have the gunned focal of the FaceCut at 12 o'clock(looking for overloading snap, is way i was told), so you are looking for a lot of force to effect snap, at top is where you will have that.
But, if trying for a 'softer', less sudden folding (as either of us describes cutting up till hinge folds/closes like felling etc.); i think the simple strategy of aiming the FaceCut/notch of to side so gunned focal of FaceCut is at like 10:30=1:30, there is less of this mammoth, compressing force to deal with, for we are not folding towards 12 o'clock whereby we would get most compression. Another tweak would be to put something under the cut, so the spar had less distance to sink.
The humor and different aspects of the same things, in logger vs. climber i think are great. Humor is a positive energy in correct grace.
i think that to skinny down to the real why's and how's of cutting; the same explanations/tricks should work in both of those worlds (logger vs. climber). That if stripped down to the barest of powerful principals, the fewest to watch and remember and to guide decisions; these would be the same things in both lands. For wee would find it to be exactly the same but different! The same forces, tools and materials just set to different scales and angles etc.
Ooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrr something like that!
:alien:
This strategy of cutting Rob shows, to me is on the same principle, but opposite desired effect of centerpunching a hinge; for the purpose of eliminating the stiffer,older center wood; and hinging on the flexible outer fibers.
Here, i have always thought that the intent was the same principle in reverse. In your pic i take the top to be a face cut notch up; and the cuts to be programed to stress/overload and thereby snap the older/stiffer inner wood by loading all of the force to that 'brittle' area. Some fellas would make the top just a kerf face even, so to me looking for overload snap; i believe cut 5 would bore in and down towards freedom as bottom widened. If cracks along spar length,dry; i might nose in and out to freedom (like 5) in all cuts but the face fearing shifting/splintering. When i messed with that strategy.
But i prefer wedges for just cutting straight down with wedge in top; or as i have shown cuts previously. As i do it 'my' way; it is the same as i do a lot of my serious cuts as i have shown. So i tap all that experience and make new, closeup observations of the same strategy put to different angles at the same time.
The same strategy working from so many different angles; is what has brought me to singling and polishing mostly that strategy at different angles.
Actually i call 'my' bucking strategy a "Dent's"; because it stems from those felling lessons in his book. But actually he recomends bucking like your picture cuts 1-3, then upwards through cuts 4 & 5 as one cut, to fold, but faster fold as that small amount of stretched wood from the bottom will cut easy, and for fast fold, lots of tension in that smaller confined strip tailing from ccenter block down through the area of cuts 4 & 5 in your pic..
i think that if maximum gravity power of compression is encountered at TDC then the picture you show (cutting away from center on final cut to suddenly overload remaining wood is good to have the gunned focal of the FaceCut at 12 o'clock(looking for overloading snap, is way i was told), so you are looking for a lot of force to effect snap, at top is where you will have that.
But, if trying for a 'softer', less sudden folding (as either of us describes cutting up till hinge folds/closes like felling etc.); i think the simple strategy of aiming the FaceCut/notch of to side so gunned focal of FaceCut is at like 10:30=1:30, there is less of this mammoth, compressing force to deal with, for we are not folding towards 12 o'clock whereby we would get most compression. Another tweak would be to put something under the cut, so the spar had less distance to sink.
The humor and different aspects of the same things, in logger vs. climber i think are great. Humor is a positive energy in correct grace.
i think that to skinny down to the real why's and how's of cutting; the same explanations/tricks should work in both of those worlds (logger vs. climber). That if stripped down to the barest of powerful principals, the fewest to watch and remember and to guide decisions; these would be the same things in both lands. For wee would find it to be exactly the same but different! The same forces, tools and materials just set to different scales and angles etc.
Ooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrr something like that!
:alien:
Newfie
Addicted to ArboristSite
"Why would you need to make 4 cuts as shown? "
Because the guy at OSHA is not cutting for scale and grade, he's just sitting around making up rules and guidelines.
Because the guy at OSHA is not cutting for scale and grade, he's just sitting around making up rules and guidelines.
Tried that today, John. Worked great. I was in the 'billy goat pile' of hedge....this was just a small log....even so worked just fine.
I have a MUCH larger log I drove out to play with.....but when I got to it, I realized I couldn't budge it without the log jaw. Wonder where I put that thing......
log jaw
You drove out to it and didn't have a rope to wrap around it three or four wraps and pull with the vehicle? As the rope is pulled, it spins the log as the rope unwinds off the log. Try it with a piece of thread and a pencil on the kitchen table to see it work. You'll find if you go over the top, around the back and under the log a few wraps, tie into the last wrap, it works fine. Che, where is your rope? You're on a farm and you have to have a rope or two around the place, the farms not complete without rope.
You drove out to it and didn't have a rope to wrap around it three or four wraps and pull with the vehicle? As the rope is pulled, it spins the log as the rope unwinds off the log. Try it with a piece of thread and a pencil on the kitchen table to see it work. You'll find if you go over the top, around the back and under the log a few wraps, tie into the last wrap, it works fine. Che, where is your rope? You're on a farm and you have to have a rope or two around the place, the farms not complete without rope.
Gypo Logger
Timber Baron
Hi Che, another tool that works great is a short handled cant hook. the Peavey Co. makes real nice ones. The 24" - 36" one is the best I find.
I like running out of firewood, it's fun to go get some more. It's like money, it's more fun to make it than accumulate it.
John
I like running out of firewood, it's fun to go get some more. It's like money, it's more fun to make it than accumulate it.
John
i think ya can torque/leverage the motion like that, remove stobs etc. blocking travel direction for given distance of turn needed; every once in a while don't close your mind to using a stob striking ground under power as stop, turn on one side , kinda dutchman step in the face of it's travel as it were.
Need more, put pulley in short line at log position run line in U through it, anchoring one end to tree etc., pulling other in truck for 2/1 pull to use. Especially if ya have to laod truck anyway, load weight in back first, for positive traction Lady Che. Never ever, stand in line with a loaded line, especially nylon; it can hit you like a train if it unties or breaks loaded; no second chances!
Orrrr something like that!
:alien:
Need more, put pulley in short line at log position run line in U through it, anchoring one end to tree etc., pulling other in truck for 2/1 pull to use. Especially if ya have to laod truck anyway, load weight in back first, for positive traction Lady Che. Never ever, stand in line with a loaded line, especially nylon; it can hit you like a train if it unties or breaks loaded; no second chances!
Orrrr something like that!
:alien:
Good point, Spyder. I've seen webbing snap & strike a young feller on the thigh. Sounded like a pistol.
None on me...I had just unrolled a couple round bales, and tooled over on the JD to check it out. Looked at it...realized that I wasn't going to BUDGE it without some help. I simply drove back to the truck and on to plan B....the billygoat pile of hedge. I may use that method to roll this log, if I drag it out first....I'm not sure I can move it even with the logjaw...
I DO need some rope....lots of chains around here, but I can't really handle them...big chains.... BIG chains. I don't know what would be the best size/material rope for this type of application. ANY SUGGESTIONS?? Currently I use a towing strap (hook on either end), but it's not long enough for some things....for instance, yesterday I wanted to drag a few pieced OUT of the pile, but didn't think I'd get out again if I went in any further (its a depressed area going into some sink holes.)
Thanks KC, I do worry about loaded lines as I don't know the specifics of different materials. I thought the strap was relatively safe. I like the pulley idea....I could think of many situations that would be useful here.
John...I agree....although I wouldn't mind accumulating some money also.
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farm/ropes
I found the best length to be 40' with log hooks on the ends, I had it in the truck all the time in case I got stuck. I didn't get stuck except in my own driveway (impossible to get back to the house in the winter). In 10 years I pulled a lot of cars out of ditches and fields with that rope before it had to be replaced. Chains are better but they are heavy. Make them up in 10' lengths instead of 20'. Paint the hooks and the first few links white then give them a coat of any flouresecnt paint color so they are easy to see, that way there is less chance you'll leave them out or lose them. I get ribbed about my flouresecent orange, red and pink chains but they rarely get legs and wonder off or get left behind. When you paint them white first they reflect 75%-90% more light than not painting them white first.
I use a peavey and they work, you need a lot of grunt power on big logs though. That is why when you're by yourself the rope trick is a option, the vehicle has more grunt to roll the log and works. The old wood and metal Crosby rope blocks can be found at most flea markets and they are rebuildable. I've gone to the metal ones, new toys.
I found the best length to be 40' with log hooks on the ends, I had it in the truck all the time in case I got stuck. I didn't get stuck except in my own driveway (impossible to get back to the house in the winter). In 10 years I pulled a lot of cars out of ditches and fields with that rope before it had to be replaced. Chains are better but they are heavy. Make them up in 10' lengths instead of 20'. Paint the hooks and the first few links white then give them a coat of any flouresecnt paint color so they are easy to see, that way there is less chance you'll leave them out or lose them. I get ribbed about my flouresecent orange, red and pink chains but they rarely get legs and wonder off or get left behind. When you paint them white first they reflect 75%-90% more light than not painting them white first.
I use a peavey and they work, you need a lot of grunt power on big logs though. That is why when you're by yourself the rope trick is a option, the vehicle has more grunt to roll the log and works. The old wood and metal Crosby rope blocks can be found at most flea markets and they are rebuildable. I've gone to the metal ones, new toys.
