Carbon Analysis On Piston Crown

[Tzed250]

In one of your early responses, you indicated running 32:1 to get oil sealing compression increase in the hope of more power. Oil hurts combustion. When I corrected valve stem seal leak by. Fuel to oil ratio went from approx 150:1 to 600:1. I got a 10% increase in fuel economy. Simply better burning of the gas without oil. Same only more severe is occurring with 32:1. Synthetic oils have higher temperature capabilities. In other words, they won't thin out or burn as easily as Dino oil. Drop back to 40:1 or even recommended 50:1 since saws are generically capable of reaching very acceptable total life hours running 50:1 Dino.

GOOD LUCK. REPORT what we all hope successful resolution.

It appears that the piston head has dry soot while the squish area of the cylinder at the intake side is wet oily. If that is correct as expected the piston is running hotter than the cylinder. Why did you pull it apart? Just your curiosity? If you're into build and teardown, clean the carbon off and run a a few tanks at 40:1 and pull it down again. If it is substantially cleaner- just too much oil @ 32:1. If it is still carboned, especially on the piston head, possibly gas rich. Either way--rich on fuel means extra extra oil or OK adjustment on fuel means just extra oil. Either way means you shouldn't score a cylinder etc.
We certainly can't expecting a 2 stroke to burn as clean as a 4 stroke.

Are you hoping to optimize oil VS power output without trashing cylinder and piston? 16K + certainly requires good lubrication.

Good Luck.

Please see the following document:


OIL RATIO


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[edisto]

Please see the following document:


OIL RATIO


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Bell reports similar results...although I think both are dealing with castor beans.

 

[mictrik]

Bell reports similar results...although I think both are dealing with castor beans.

This article is old (1978) and did use Castor based oil for its test. Oil has come a long way since then and I would love to see similar tests performed on modern synthesized formulations. The issue we have is the myriad of variables that can be applied at any given time. These are fuel in terms of octane, detergency and age. The oil, oil synthesized and otherwise is formulated with many different characteristics; what may be optimal for one application or condition may be deferent in another. Tuning of your engine is another variable which to be optimal must be adjusted for varying atmospheric conditions to include heat, atmospheric pressure (altitude), and humidity. Mix these variables up and you will have to spend a ridiculous amount of time trying to get it perfect. So we opt for for basic maxims like tune a hair rich, mix ratio 50:1, 32:1 etc..., use synthetic oils ester based or PAO, on and on. In the end few of us if any have any scientifically produced data for us to really measure the minor differences between on selection and another. All I can say is what I do and the empirical results that I have.

What I do...
Gasoline:
I try to use Shell Premium (what ever their calling it now) because Shell is the only gasoline retailer meeting the top tier gas spec for detergency in my area. Their premium is supposed to have the most so I use it. Is top tier just a marketing ploy or simply irrelevant; I do not know. However its easy to buy and don't see a downside so i do... Here is a link to the top tier website, I just noticed that Exxon & Mobil have been recently added, great more options...
http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html
Two Stroke Oil:
I use Motul 800 2T Off road. I mix between 40:1 and 64:1 depending on the application and how accurate i feel that day (LOL). This oil is ester based and it has been developed for sustained high RPM. Their road race & Cart versions uses a molecular structures that is meant for higher RPM's 18-24000 so I don't use them in hand held 2-cycle motors. My Chainsaw will see no more than 13,600 perhaps 14000 and other small engines like blowers, trimmers etc... are less.
The Motul is red, smells nice and is rather viscous compared to other oils I have used (Amsoil Saber, Echo power blend, Redmax, Stihl orange and Ultra. I pay $15.00 for one Liter of Motul 800 and this was cheaper than the Echo oil bought in home depot and the Stihl oil as sold at retail. Perhaps some of you can find 33oz of Stihl oil for less than $15.00, I can not. Motul by its formulation should actually be superior to even the Stihl ultra oil in terms of protection but again this will depend on all of those variables and the environment (RPM, Heat etc...) I use it in. Suffice it to say that an Ester based oil like Motul is more expensive to produce than a PAO like Stihl ultra, maybe I think i am getting a bargain or maybe I just like the smell of the Red Motul... Actually, i am not sure but i like it.
My Results:
Well I have 3-6 years of personal use on various hand held machinery to include, Shinny EB802 Blower, trimmers, trimmer FS90 and HS45, Echo SRM-230, and Chainsaws Stihl MS360 Pro, Echo CS-3000, & Poulan 3700.
All of these units run smoother and cleaner with the Motul 800. The blower however prefers it at 64:1 ratio as i used to see a little spooge at 50:1 or more oil. The Stihl units plus the Echo trimmer I bought from a landscaper two years ago. I cleaned them up when i got them and inspected the P&C as best I could from the muffler port and spark plug. Lets just say Carbon abound! The worst specimen being the Stihl 4-mix trimmer whose exhaust valve and port was caked with carbon. I cleaned off the carbon manually where i could, cleaned & painted if necessary all of the mufflers, I bought and used Stihl de-carbonizer (especially for the 4-mix), installed new plugs and filled the gas tanks with fresh Shell 93 and Motul 800 at 50:1. I then used all of the equipment. I mixed a gallon with some Techron additive for the 4-mix and that definitely helped upon inspection as the valves turned to on a brownish red color. After many tank full through all of the machines with mix ratios of 50:1 to around 70:1 I finally inspected them the other day. They are ALL very CLEAN. I wish I had before and after pictures because I am very surprised (pleasantly) myself! i was actually wondering if there would be more deposits to clean. The 4mix valves look like I swapped them for new ones. The MS 360 piston looks brand new but to be honest it and the HS45 hedge trimmer were very clean when i got it, so no miracles there but no buildup either and they do seem a little cleaner.
With regard to wondering if these machines are being properly lubricated since I have not pulled them apart (and don't want to) all I can say is this. I was introduced to Motul when I was in Germany years ago. A co-worker was a cart racer and I saw a cart engine get pulled a part that used this oil. All of the moving parts were thoroughly coated in red oil. He said that Motul 800 had always yielded the best results for him and that most cart racers used it. these machines turn RPM's that double your average chainsaw and this is why I looked for it in the USA. The Echo CS-3000 was weened on Echo oil but it has been fed a diet of Motul since 2004 and now looks cleaner than before. All clean and knock wood no failures. Mind you I am not a commercial user but some of my equipment was used commercially before I had it and they are all running better than when I acquired them.

Motul 800 Specs:

Recommendations
Mixing ratio : MOTO CROSS GRAND PRIX : 2% (50:1). In normal conditions decrease the percentage by 0.5%. Tune according to your own use.

PROPERTIES
Red coloured.
Density at 20°C (68°F) ASTM D1298 0.911
Viscosity at 40°C (104°F) ASTM D445 120.2 mm²/s
Viscosity at 100°C (212°F) ASTM D445 15.5 mm²/s
Viscosity index ASTM D2270 135
Flash point ASTM D92 252°C / 485°F

My conclusion:
From my experience Motul + Shell 93 has worked extremely well. I haven't used any additives like Techron since the first and only time I used it nearly two years ago. All of the internals seem to be clean on my 4-mix trimmer and that is saying allot. This machine was a mess when I first inspected it and it was not that old, so whatever they were fueling it with before me was like a petroleum equivalent to an artery clogging six eggs, sausages and the works breakfast from Denny's. Again, i wish I had pictures as the contrast is astonishing. So i am staying with Motul and Shell 93 from well frequented gas stations. I only mix what i use and i often add Stabil to the mix in case i don't run the machine for a while. I hope this was helpful...


Some off topic info as to why we are seeing a push away from two cycle engines.
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/...es-the-250cc-four-stroke-moto3-class-in-2012/

 

[mowoodchopper]

You guys a fried, just use the oil you trust at the ratio you trust. Analyzing

carbon around a piston crown is, like when you were teenagers with your first

girlfriend, its fun to talk about and act like you know what your seeing, but

the truth of the matter is you didnt know what you were looking at if you did catch her! And sure as heck didnt know what to do about it! LMAO

 

[blsnelling]

I've been running K2 since this, and it does burn cleaner. Andyshine77 is reporting the same.

 

[Tzed250]

You guys a fried, just use the oil you trust at the ratio you trust. Analyzing

carbon around a piston crown is, like when you were teenagers with your first

girlfriend, its fun to talk about and act like you know what your seeing, but

the truth of the matter is you didnt know what you were looking at if you did catch her! And sure as heck didnt know what to do about it! LMAO

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Prove it...




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[mowoodchopper]

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Prove it...




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no need there are 200 post to do that!

:monkey: I love to stir the pot!

 

[Tzed250]

no need there are 200 post to do that!

:monkey: I love to stir the pot!

Since you admit you add nothing of value we will disregard all past and future posts as a waste of bandwidth. Those that stir the pot often have no idea why the pot exists in the first place, or even how it got there.


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[mowoodchopper]

Since you admit you add nothing of value we will disregard all past and future posts as a waste of bandwidth. Those that stir the pot often have no idea why the pot exists in the first place, or even how it got there.


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I didnt say I added nothing of value, I said I like to stir the pot, especially with guys like you that its so easy to get under their skin! LOL As for you guys analyzing your carbon build up thread, I know how it got there, do I
I still think mostly its a bunch of idiot blow hards that never run a saw as much as their mouth? YES is your answer! If you worked as hard as you talked you wouldnt have time to worry about your carbon build up!:monkey: Maybe next you can analyze your bars for sap build up! Oh you would have to use your saw first, to bad!

 

[edisto]

I didnt say I added nothing of value, I said I like to stir the pot, especially with guys like you that its so easy to get under their skin! LOL As for you guys analyzing your carbon build up thread, I know how it got there, do I
I still think mostly its a bunch of idiot blow hards that never run a saw as much as their mouth? YES is your answer! If you worked as hard as you talked you wouldnt have time to worry about your carbon build up!:monkey: Maybe next you can analyze your bars for sap build up! Oh you would have to use your saw first, to bad!

Running saws doesn't teach you how to read pistons.

More importantly, not knowing how to read something does not mean it isn't worth reading. If you're not into pistons, maybe you could try books?

 

[mowoodchopper]

Running saws doesn't teach you how to read pistons.

More importantly, not knowing how to read something does not mean it isn't worth reading. If you're not into pistons, maybe you could try books?

I do like Books !

 

[Tzed250]

I didnt say I added nothing of value, I said I like to stir the pot, especially with guys like you that its so easy to get under their skin! LOL As for you guys analyzing your carbon build up thread, I know how it got there, do I
I still think mostly its a bunch of idiot blow hards that never run a saw as much as their mouth? YES is your answer! If you worked as hard as you talked you wouldnt have time to worry about your carbon build up!:monkey: Maybe next you can analyze your bars for sap build up! Oh you would have to use your saw first, to bad!

You are the one that is all defrosted here, not me.

You disparage the thread without adding a pro or con to the discussion.

You have no idea how hard I work or have worked. If you are posting to this thread we can assume that you are not running a saw. Your blow-hard status is equal to all others engaged in this thread.

You present yourself as a person intimidated by technical discussion. If this is the case then it may be best for you to steer clear of threads of this nature, or educate yourself sufficiently to be able to join the debate.


I can promise you one thing. The saws you run had plenty of piston crown carbon analysis done while they were being engineered.


Nothing says that the analysis must stop at the R&D department.


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[mowoodchopper]

You are the one that is all defrosted here, not me.

You disparage the thread without adding a pro or con to the discussion.

You have no idea how hard I work or have worked. If you are posting to this thread we can assume that you are not running a saw. Your blow-hard status is equal to all others engaged in this thread.

You present yourself as a person intimidated by technical discussion. If this is the case then it may be best for you to steer clear of threads of this nature, or educate yourself sufficiently to be able to join the debate.


I can promise you one thing. The saws you run had plenty of piston crown carbon analysis done while they were being engineered.


Nothing says that the analysis must stop at the R&D department.


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Trust me you dont intimidate me ! LMAO

 

[Cerran]

Brad have you pulled any more saws apart since you switched to new oil? I'm curious as to what you found with the changes you've been making.

 

[Cerran]

This is interesting,i had a chat to a stihl dealer saw tuner the other day about blow bye on a couple of my saws.I have always used premium unleaded fuel and Mobile 1 racing 2T at 40:1.He said that's the problem (premium unleaded) the saws are designed to run on 90 oct fuel and that the high energy fuels do more harm than good.

Your dealer needs to do a little more research on fuel. Higher octane fuel isn't really higher energy, just has a better anti-knock package added in most cases. Generally speaking higher octane fuel has the same energy content, but is more stable at higher cylinder pressures and won't pre-ignite as readily. This allows for higher cylinder pressures and more power per unit displacement on higher performance engines.

 

[Tzed250]

Trust me you dont intimidate me ! LMAO

Never meant to. Laugh on, clown...


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[Stihlman441]

Your dealer needs to do a little more research on fuel. Higher octane fuel isn't really higher energy, just has a better anti-knock package added in most cases. Generally speaking higher octane fuel has the same energy content, but is more stable at higher cylinder pressures and won't pre-ignite as readily. This allows for higher cylinder pressures and more power per unit displacement on higher performance engines.

Ok then use what ya wont i dont care.i will use what i wont and then it is all good.

 

[Mastermind]

Ok then use what ya wont i dont care.i will use what i wont and then it is all good.

Well, I have no opinion on your dealer. Ain't going there.

He is spot on about the octane rating. I drag raced for many years and spent considerable time learning about fuels. The higher the octane rating the more resistance the fuel has to being ignited, this allows higher cylinder pressures without preignition, which in turn leads to more horsepower.

How this applies in a two-stroke engine is beyond my pay grade at this point.

 

[1steve]

premium fuel is recommended because when oil mix is added you lower your octane rating about 2 points

 

[parrisw]

LOL you guys. Don't make me send you to the corner.

Carbon gets there from burning fuel! LOL Case closed. Don't make it more complicated then it has to be.