Chain for cutting extreme hardwood, and saw

[willysmn]

cahin for cutting dirty wood

Charlie,
I agree with the diagnosis of the engine. It is also very true that if the wood, either salt cedar, cedar, or Juniper is where the sand blows, the shaggy bark makes it tough to cut and requires frequent sharpening. Any logs that have rolled in the dirt are no fun to cut and harder on your equipment too. The right chain cutter type is important.
Sounds like you have gotten to the bottom of this. Good!

 

[cgraham]

Jimsdad7 said: You have so many options and combinations for what will work for you that it is hard to choose one.

SO RIGHT! Here is a summary of all the CHAIN suggestions from this thread. I'm still not sure which to choose for sandy hardwood.

The overwhelming preference is semi-chisel; 2 like Stihl RMC (I don't know what the cutter profile is).


There is an interesting chain that WillysMN brought to my attention. Baileys Woodlandpro 30SC (Inject-a-sharp) chain with cutters electrically impregnated with titanium-tungsten carbide. Rounded semi-chisel cutters. Only in 0.375 (3/8) pitch x 0.050 (1.3mm) gauge. "A great chain for casual users as well as professionals working in dirty cutting conditions. This chain will not cut as fast as chisel chain, but it is much more forgiving if it contacts abrasive materials like dirt and sand. Works well in both hardwoods and softwoods." And it is not much more expensive than regular chain.

It sounds ideal except it does not fit the .325 bars on the saws I favor. Unless the Husky 450 or 346XP can be modified to accept a 3/8 bar (can they?) I would have to go up to a Husky Rancher or 359, or a Stihl - the Huskies are 2 lb heavier - not welcome.

Anyone have experience of this chain's performance? Does it lose its qualities when sharpened?


Wisdom learned: All other things being equal -
A chain that dulls half as fast may only cut half the amount of wood. No advantage.

Generally the chain with the most cutters (cutters close together and/or long bar relative to the work) will stay sharp the longest; this may be convenient, but you will have just as many teeth to sharpen in the end. To put this into perspective, if a chain on a 16" bar lasts for 4 minutes a 20" bar will add one minute.

These facts make comparisons difficult.

Charlie

 

[Cliniford]

The 346xp can be converted to 3/8 very easily. Just have the dealer change out the rim. Did that when i bought mine since i try to keep everything 3/8 to simplify and for cost saving as i buy chain in bulk rolls.

 

[hybridkarpower]

Sam, are you referring to RMF or RMC chains ?

We cut dirty hard wood all day long and we use Stihl Semi-Chisel (Round tooth) in full skip.

We love it and will never purchase Chisel chain again.

Sam

 

[tdi-rick]

[snip]

The overwhelming preference is semi-chisel; 2 like Stihl RMC (I don't know what the cutter profile is).


[snip]
Charlie

RMC is Stihl's semi-chisel profile.

As mentioned above, you also have 'chipper' chain, which is even more resistant to abrasive wear than semi-chisel, but only Carlton still produce it.

Here in Australia abrasive, hard and dense timbers dominate and it appears most of our stuff is tougher than virtually anything normally cut in the US.

We tend to use semi-chisel or chipper on most everything and swap chains a lot.
In semi-chisel take your pick from Carlton, Windsor or Stihl, they all work well and are a much of a muchness in terms of life and speed, with the Stihl being the smoothest in the cut and the Windsor probably the easiest to file.
Carltons chipper or 'S' chain the is next step as Matt mentioned before heading for carbide chain.

 

[cgraham]

The 346xp can be converted to 3/8 very easily. Just have the dealer change out the rim. Did that when i bought mine since i try to keep everything 3/8 to simplify and for cost saving as i buy chain in bulk rolls.

I may follow Cliniford's advice and get a 3/8" bar so I can use the carbide impregnated cutters. I assume by changing the "rim" he means the bar. Do I need a different sprocket too? If so it will be a permanent conversion from .325 to 3/8, not just swapping bars at will, I guess.

I think 3/8" means the links are slightly longer that .325, so I suppose the load on the engine should be reduced a little, unless 3/8 comes with larger cutters. I noticed 3/8 tends to be associated with saws over 50cc (Stihl and Husky anyway - with a few exceptions). I wonder what the reason for this is and if I am missing something. In other words, any downsides to 3/8 on a 346XP 18" bar?

Thanks for the chipper suggestion, tdi-Rick. My dealer always answered he was selling me chipper chain when I needed a replacement. Since it was labeled Sthil or Oregon, I begin to doubt: right now I'm looking at an Oregon with 25 inscribed on the raker and 21 on the drive link; based on my limited knowledge I think it is a semi-chisel. I'll look into getting a Carleton chipper before changing to 3/8 pitch.

Charlie

 

[MCW]

I may follow Cliniford's advice and get a 3/8" bar so I can use the carbide impregnated cutters. I assume by changing the "rim" he means the bar. Do I need a different sprocket too? If so it will be a permanent conversion from .325 to 3/8, not just swapping bars at will, I guess.

I think 3/8" means the links are slightly longer that .325, so I suppose the load on the engine should be reduced a little, unless 3/8 comes with larger cutters. I noticed 3/8 tends to be associated with saws over 50cc (Stihl and Husky anyway - with a few exceptions). I wonder what the reason for this is and if I am missing something. In other words, any downsides to 3/8 on a 346XP 18" bar?

Thanks for the chipper suggestion, tdi-Rick. My dealer always answered he was selling me chipper chain when I needed a replacement. Since it was labeled Sthil or Oregon, I begin to doubt: right now I'm looking at an Oregon with 25 inscribed on the raker and 21 on the drive link; based on my limited knowledge I think it is a semi-chisel. I'll look into getting a Carleton chipper before changing to 3/8 pitch.

Charlie

When Cliniford mentioned changing the "rim" he did mean the sprocket. You need a different sprocket to go between .325" and 3/8" chain. Just like you have to change your bar (unless you're using a hard nose). Changing a rim sprocket isn't permanent. All you have to undo is the circlip, swap your old rim sprocket back and you're using .325" again
3/8" does come with larger cutters than .325" and will be harder to pull all things being even (raker height etc).
I think some guys in the states refer to semi chisel as chipper but that's not the case at all. Chipper has a far more rounded cutter profile.

 

[Zombiechopper]

the term chipper does get tossed around here when I think folks mean semi chisel but I have actually seen it on old saws on farms around here. I have 1/2" chipper on my David Bradley that came from a barn. Very rounded profile

 

[dingeryote]

I may follow Cliniford's advice and get a 3/8" bar so I can use the carbide impregnated cutters. I assume by changing the "rim" he means the bar. Do I need a different sprocket too? If so it will be a permanent conversion from .325 to 3/8, not just swapping bars at will, I guess.

I think 3/8" means the links are slightly longer that .325, so I suppose the load on the engine should be reduced a little, unless 3/8 comes with larger cutters. I noticed 3/8 tends to be associated with saws over 50cc (Stihl and Husky anyway - with a few exceptions). I wonder what the reason for this is and if I am missing something. In other words, any downsides to 3/8 on a 346XP 18" bar?

Thanks for the chipper suggestion, tdi-Rick. My dealer always answered he was selling me chipper chain when I needed a replacement. Since it was labeled Sthil or Oregon, I begin to doubt: right now I'm looking at an Oregon with 25 inscribed on the raker and 21 on the drive link; based on my limited knowledge I think it is a semi-chisel. I'll look into getting a Carleton chipper before changing to 3/8 pitch.

Charlie

Do yourself a favor and don't bother with converting to 3/8.
It's a wasted effort unless you're gonna mod the saw for cutting cookies.

Also don't bother with the injectasharp. It holds up about as well as Stihl semi-chisel and no better. The carbide particles are held onto the cutters with an epoxy coating that wears faster than the chrome that supports the cutting edge, and does nothing to support the "Beak" at the corner where the real problem is.

Sand, like the Beach sand and sandy loam we have here gets into the bark and the silica gets into the wood proper, and rounds the edges.
Starting out with a rounded corner(Beak) that will cut delays the overall dulling. The "Beak" on chisel chain getting just slightly rounded will end the cutting.

Ya gotta use the file in the field if you're gonna get anywhere cutting the stuff I do, and from the sounds of it the stuff you are into.
Not letting the things go dull in the first place.

Just a couple of passes on each tooth will do it unless you rocked the chain or shoved the tip into the dirt.
The depth guides from Stihl that simply clamp onto the file work great and are fast with semi chisel, just match the angle and take a swipe.

Good luck to ya!
And don't overthink things.
Folks have been cutting dirty, sandy, hard wood for years now.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

 

[MCW]

Here you go.

Chipper on the left, semi chisel in the middle, and full chisel on the right...

Full chisel left, semi in the middle, and chipper on the right...

Full chisel top, semi middle, and chipper bottom...

The full chisel pictured is Oregon LGX and both the semi and chipper are Carlton.

 

[tdi-rick]

Can't get any clearer than that Matt.

Charlie, this http://www.sawchain.com/images/complete book.pdf is one of the best reference publications you can read on saw chain, types, sharpening and how it works.

 

[cgraham]

Mates, I really appreciate you staying up all night writing this valuable advice from your (truly) great store of experience :wave:

As an expat Brit, who once associated with a truly wild-crazy Auzzie, I have a special appreciation for the national character, big-hearted and ready for anything. Australia is a great country I never had the pleasure of visiting. I'd love to see you blokes felling one of those huge hardwoods with those huge bars!

Dingeryote, those photos are exactly what I needed! I couldn't find anything similar. Thanks! They tell me I am using a semi-chisel; I'll make sure I get Stihl next time and give it a go, but I'd like to find a cheaper alternative if there is an equivalent one. I will also try Carleton chipper, said to be more abrasion-resistant than equivalent quality semi-chisel.

According to everything I have read, the Inject-a-sharp is coated/impregnated using an electrolytic process, so the bond should be better than epoxy. On the other hand I did run across a magnified illustration of it - it looked like flakes adhered to the surface - and the author noted they flaked off. No disagreement here in principle, especially about the beak. The few opinions are very mixed.

I have decided not to convert until I test a new 50cc Husky, bar and optimal .325 chains, and then only if all else fails (I was considering buying the saw set up for 3/8 to save the cost of converting later). One of the reasons for this decision is that my old bar groove is splayed wide so the chain does not stand upright, but wiggles around, and all of my used chain has rivet wear after only a couple of sharpenings: one 2/3-used chain has about 1/32" of wear between two adjoining rivets (I don't know what normal wear would be). These factors, plus imperfectly sharpened, less than ideal chain, may have caused my problems more than the sand presumed to be present. So I need to re-evaluate with good equipment and technique.

A clean start should tell me a lot if I pay attention, and test systematically. I know a little about chain care in the field, although there are times frustration has driven me to ignore it. I know a great deal more now, thanks to the good people on this thread. My only difficulty is hand-sharpening, which I never mastered after 40 years of occasional cutting. I'm not sure if I have the patience to try again. I guess I can try to touch up machine-sharpened cutters in the field, but I'll probably just swap chains at the first sign of dulling (I will have several) - I'm more interested in reducing total cutting time and effort (age, you know) than in maximizing chain life.

Rick, the e-book you recommended is a real gem: thanks! It has everything in one place that I have found in bits and pieces elsewhere, and much more. Really well written! I'll be printing a copy for the shop. Do you use the Carleton sharpening system or their chains?

I have another 2 questions: (collective groan). My blown Husky 345 manual says that the bar accepts any of the following drive links: .050, .058, .063. I don't know if this will be the case for the next saw. I just measured two chains: one runs about .046 (Oregon mentioned in earlier post), the other (no name) about .026. Both were supplied by a supposedly competent shop. What gives? I would have thought there would be a narrow range of acceptable tolerance in order to help keep the chain upright and reduce uneven wear on the rails (if indeed, that is one of the functions of the drive links - it is the other side of the coin of the rails being excessively separated, allowing the chain to wobble - so I'm told).

The Carleton e-book suggests changing sprockets every chain or so. I never heard of such a thing. Isn't that a bit excessive? How about changing based on wear: how much is acceptable?

I wish you could have one on me: Cheers

Charlie

 

[tdi-rick]

Charlie, the Carlton File-o-Plate is a great gizmo and a better alternative for filing the correct raker/depth gauge height than anything sold by Stihl or Oregon, although some of us think the depth gauge height it arrives at is a little wimpy for high powered saws.

There is a great thread started by BobL on the FOP and what is the correct cutting angle of the cutter tooth.
A really informative read.
I'll dig up a link.

The FOP's only downside is that it kills files if you are a bit heavy on the stroke.

Husky has a roller guide/combi guide that works in a similar fashion to the FOP and has the advantages of the FOP without the disadvantages, (it has rollers the file slides over instead of a hardened plate)
A really neat bit of kit.
While designed for Husky (Oregon) chain, it seems to work well with my Carlton and Windsor 3/8 chain.

Vallorbe make a clamp on file guide (the file clamps to the guide) that holds the file in a better position IMO than the Oregon or Stihl equivalents. It gives you a slightly more aggressive, factory type hook, the other two have the file sitting too high in relation to the cutter, unless you bodgie it with a wrap or two of leccy tape on the file.

Re chain gauges, in 325 and 3/8 you have 050, 058 and 063.
Each chain must match the bar, if you run a 050 chain in an 063 bar the chain will wander all over the place, cut crooked and wear the crap out of the drive dogs and bar groove.
In other words, you select your gauge to match your bar/s and what is common you area. eg here, Stihl are all sold with .063" and Husky .058" bar and chains. In the US .050" seems to dominate most makes and areas.
The rims will drive any of the three gauges, and you can swap bar/chain gauges and keep the same rim between them all.

Yes, swap the rim on wear, you get a feel for how far is too far from looking/checking it.

[edit]BTW, the Battle for the Ashes starts here soon, and your mob may be holding onto that little urn for a bit longer, but we'll see how things are going at the end of the Fifth Test (I live in hope)

 

[cgraham]

More great info, Rick: thanks!

I would like the BobL FOP link. I'll look up the Husky ver. and the Vallorbe guide. Here is a bit of Australasian (or should I call it decadent dialect - better not) that needs translation: "bodgie it with a wrap or two of leccy tape".

I had forgotton that the drive link thickness is the guage and that the bar and chain must match in gauge. A closer look at my manual suggests that the stock equipment was 0.050 which is what the ~0.046+ links I measured on several chains must be, nominally.

I see now that the manual is saying that three different chain/bar guage combinations are acceptable. I don't remember if I ever replaced the bar and was handed a different guage, nor can I say what the guage of the present bar is, because I left it at the new shop. But the fact that I have two .058 chains too means I was sold chains without being asked what the guage was (and I didn't know enough to tell them - hey they have my saw on their computer and can look it up!) No wonder my bar groove is spread and the saw won't cut reliably. Why are there 3 almost identical guages anyway: I guess they are associated with different width cutters. but I can't find anything on that? I'm glad I found a new shop with a good tech, not to speak of you guys!

I can't believe the multiple issues that have surfaced during the course of this thread. It will be a really good resource for future reference by others.

Thanks again: have another

Virtual beer sucks

OT: "BTW, the Battle for the Ashes starts here soon, and your mob may be holding onto that little urn for a bit longer, but we'll see how things are going at the end of the Fifth Test (I live in hope) "

Your lot had 'em too bloody long. We urned 'em and we are going to keep 'em. Good luck all the same (but not TOO good)

Charlie

 

[8433jeff]

If your shop saw your chain, it isn't hard to identify what gauge you have depending on what brand you have. That said, its also the easiest and most common screw up. The cutters on all 3 gauges, in each profile, are the same, in other words a cutter on a .325 chain in .050 is the same as one in .063. I would look at cutting as narrow a kerf as I could in that stuff, and with as short of a bar as I can get by with. IMHO, if you're staying with that size saw, 16" is ideal. I detest .325 chain, but run what you like in .050 if its handy.

 

[tdi-rick]

[snip]

I would like the BobL FOP link. I'll look up the Husky ver. and the Vallorbe guide. Here is a bit of Australasian (or should I call it decadent dialect - better not) that needs translation: "bodgie it with a wrap or two of leccy tape".


[snip]

Oops.
A bit of Aussie slips out now and then :monkey:

If something is 'bodgie' it is suspect or not very good (quality)

'To bodgie' something means to do a shonky repair

leccy tape = electrical tape

Virtual beer sucks

OT: "BTW, the Battle for the Ashes starts here soon, and your mob may be holding onto that little urn for a bit longer, but we'll see how things are going at the end of the Fifth Test (I live in hope) "

Your lot had 'em too bloody long. We urned 'em and we are going to keep 'em. Good luck all the same (but not TOO good)

Charlie

As i said, we'll see

 

[MCW]

Here is a bit of Australasian (or should I call it decadent dialect - better not) that needs translation: "bodgie it with a wrap or two of leccy tape".
Charlie

Hey don't worry about Rick's language. He tries to act like a true outback cattle musterer or Crocodile Dundee occasionally but he actually sounds quite articulate and educated on the phone. Every now and then he just acts a bit feral to gain back some street cred

Hi Rick

 

[tdi-rick]

Charlie, here's Bob's thread on cutter angles, a bloody good read.
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=114624

 

[tdi-rick]

Hey don't worry about Rick's language. He tries to act like a true outback cattle musterer or Crocodile Dundee occasionally but he actually sounds quite articulate and educated on the phone. Every now and then he just acts a bit feral to gain back some street cred

Hi Rick

We're a feral lot with a pretence to culture (or is that just eccentricities ?) around here.

 

[cgraham]

Rick & MCW: Thanks for Bob's link, Rick. I haven't looked at it yet, but if you recommend it, it will be {bloody} good, and will go into the file with the others.

I had a feeling I should have guessed "leccy", but bodgie" is a new one. Oh, thanks for "shonky" - also new.

You should add this to your sig, Rick: "As i said, we'll see " Then you won't have to keep typing it

****************************

Originally Posted by MCW
Hey don't worry about Rick's language. He tries to act like a true outback cattle musterer or Crocodile Dundee occasionally but he actually sounds quite articulate and educated on the phone. Every now and then he just acts a bit feral to gain back some street cred.


rick:
We're a feral lot with a pretence to culture (or is that just eccentricities?) around here.

Hey - I like a little color, MWC. I think Rick has it right - adopted a few cultured eccentricities (but not many). Don't spoil our mental image of him! I bet his avatar is actually him! Anyway, he is a good ol' boy :biggrinbounce2:

One more time

Virtual beer is flat.

Charlie