Chain Sharpening Questions: Rakers & Profile

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So I've been reading through the thread here and it's very good and interesting to hear everyone's thoughts and what works for them. I'm only mentioning this as my 2 cents and nothing more meant to anyone, also that I would hate to see guys tossing chains in the corner because of it..............and this is length of cutter teeth. So I for a long time worried and worked over my chains to keep the length even until I had the light bulb moment. So as long as you keep your rakers at the proper depth say .25 for example, wouldn't a cutter tooth say 1/8th inch long still cut the same size chip as . Safe cuttin gents

You may be right that it doesn't matter, much anyway. Just for discussion's sake, consider your chain resting on its bar. On a new chain all the rakers and teeth are the same.
Once you damage one, then fix it by filing, its cutter edge will be lower. Thats because the teeth are slanted and become lower as you file them. When you file the corresponding raker it will match that tooth, but both that tooth and that raker will be lower than the rest(as mesured from the bar). Therefore as the chain runs thru the kerf, that tooth and raker will be shorter (closer to the bar) and cutting less or not at all ... theoretically! In the field it may not matter. IDK.
TomJV
 
Lots of ways to sharpen chains - if you find something that works for you, stick with it.

There are really 4 basic settings when sharpening chain, whether filing or grinding (aside from the size of the file 'x' or grinding wheel used):
Screen shot 2017-01-21 at 9.00.26 PM.png
'A' - the top plate angle (typically 30°) determines the angle of top plate entry into the wood (like the angle a skew chisel when woodworking), *but also, the bevel angle of the side plate cutting edge*;

'C' - called the side plate angle (typically 60°), but really the bevel of the top plate cutting edge (again, think of the cutting bevel of a wood working chisel). This is a function of the file diameter and the height that the file is held (or the angle of the grinder). Oregon says that this should be 1/5 (20%) of the file diameter - some file guides position this for you;

'B' - the down angle (since the handle of the file is held level or dropped down 10°) makes this into a more complex, compound angle. I have been told that under controlled test conditions, this absolutely makes a difference in some chains. Some file guides, however, are not designed to be used in this position, and some grinders do not accommodate the down angle. Up to you, but going back-and-forth between 0° and 10° will waste a lot of time and cutter life, so pick one;

'D' - depth gauge offset - some people say that this should be a fixed measurement (like 0.025") - others say that it should be 'progressive' (change as the top plate wears back), and use an angular relationship. The Carlton File-O-Plates and Husqvarna guides can help you with a progressive setting.

BUT (and it's a big 'But'), these are all starting points. Chain companies make chain for millions of users, in dozens of countries, cutting hundreds of species of wood, under different conditions, with different saws. Their opinion about what is 'best' for 'general use' changes, as have their recommendations. You may find that different angles or settings work for you. You may want different settings for different cutting conditions (you might want different chains filed / ground at different angles for different wood). Just do this intentionally - in other words, if you want a chain filed to 35/55/10 or 25/65/0 go ahead, but don't do this mistakenly thinking that you are filing at 30/60/0 due to inaccuracy.

Understand that chain from different manufacturers is also not exactly the same - the height or angles on a STIHL cutter may vary slightly from that on an Oregon or Carlton cutter, even though they look similar and all fit the same saw. And manufacturers may disagree on what is 'best'. So recommended angles and settings may vary. *One advantage of sharpening your own chains is that you get to decide what is 'best' for you.*


....and this is length of cutter teeth. . . .So as long as you keep your rakers at the proper depth say .25 for example, wouldn't a cutter tooth say 1/8th inch long still cut the same size chip as one say 3/8th long?
No.

If each cutter is properly sharpened on both bevels (top plate and side plate), and the depth gauge offset is properly set, the chain will probably cut and throw chips. But the length of the cutter is directly related to the height of the cutter and the width (kerf) of the cutter. No tooth cuts alone in a loop. If all the cutters are not the same height, the chain will bounce more (at a chain speed of 60 mph this will translate into vibration), and higher cutters may participate more in the cut, preventing lower cutters from taking as thick of a chip. Getting all of the cutting teeth the same same height on a saw is generally referred to as jointing.
Screen shot 2014-09-03 at 8.59.02 PM.png

Similarly, as the cutter is worn / filed / ground back, it becomes narrower, affecting the kerf. A narrower tooth may not fully clear the side wall of the kerf, making the next tooth scrape it a second time. Getting all of the cutting teeth to extend the same distance sideways on a saw is generally referred to as setting.



Screen shot 2017-01-21 at 9.43.11 PM.png
A saw that is not properly jointed and set may still cut, but it will not be as efficient or as smooth.

The OP (remember the OP?) asked about rounding over depth gauges. Note the illustration below *but note that position '3' continues as long as the tooth is in the cut - it does not 'porpoise' continuously along the guide bar*. If the depth gauge is filed off flat, it will leave a sharp corner that 1) can dig into the wood, causing drag, and 2) act as a fulcrum point to push the cutting edges farther from the wood. Since we cannot know the exact angle that a cutter will always rock to (depends on tension, sharpness, wood, etc.), we use a rounded profile that will essentially maintain the same offset, regardless of the cutter angle / position.

Chain Cutting Motion.png


I don't own a grinder for several reasons.
A decent grinder is expensive.
You gotta dress the wheel.
A diamod wheel is also exp.
They chew up chains.

- A decent grinder is an investment, for those who use them, and especially those who sharpen or restore a lot of chains. Good ones keep much of their value.

- Dressing the wheel takes seconds. Less time than tapping out a file over the course of sharpening a loop.

- Don't buy a diamond wheel (I don't have one - they are only for carbide chains). I don't own a CBN wheel (for standard chains) either.

- The grinder does not chew up chains - the operator chews up chains using the grinder. (Just for fun, mail me a new chain and file, and let me show you how badly I can chew it up by filing incorrectly!).

Philbert
 
Lots of ways to sharpen chains - if you find something that works for you, stick with it.

There are really 4 basic settings when sharpening chain, whether filing or grinding (aside from the size of the file 'x' or grinding wheel used):
View attachment 552884
'A' - the top plate angle (typically 30°) determines the angle of top plate entry into the wood (like the angle a skew chisel when woodworking), *but also, the bevel angle of the side plate cutting edge*;

'C' - called the side plate angle (typically 60°), but really the bevel of the top plate cutting edge (again, think of the cutting bevel of a wood working chisel). This is a function of the file diameter and the height that the file is held (or the angle of the grinder). Oregon says that this should be 1/5 (20%) of the file diameter - some file guides position this for you;

'B' - the down angle (since the handle of the file is held level or dropped down 10°) makes this into a more complex, compound angle. I have been told that under controlled test conditions, this absolutely makes a difference in some chains. Some file guides, however, are not designed to be used in this position, and some grinders do not accommodate the down angle. Up to you, but going back-and-forth between 0° and 10° will waste a lot of time and cutter life, so pick one;

'D' - depth gauge offset - some people say that this should be a fixed measurement (like 0.025") - others say that it should be 'progressive' (change as the top plate wears back), and use an angular relationship. The Carlton File-O-Plates and Husqvarna guides can help you with a progressive setting.

BUT (and it's a big 'But'), these are all starting points. Chain companies make chain for millions of users, in dozens of countries, cutting hundreds of species of wood, under different conditions, with different saws. Their opinion about what is 'best' for 'general use' changes, as have their recommendations. You may find that different angles or settings work for you. You may want different settings for different cutting conditions (you might want different chains filed / ground at different angles for different wood). Just do this intentionally - in other words, if you want a chain filed to 35/55/10 or 25/65/0 go ahead, but don't do this mistakenly thinking that you are filing at 30/60/0.

Understand that chain from different manufacturers is also not exactly the same - the height or angles on a STIHL cutter may vary slightly from that on an Oregon or Carlton cutter, even though they look similar and all fit the same saw. And manufacturers may disagree on what is 'best'. So recommended angles and settings may vary. *One advantage of sharpening your own chains is that you get to decide what is 'best' for you.*



No.

If each cutter is properly sharpened on both bevels (top plate and side plate), and the depth gauge offset is properly set, the chain will probably cut and throw chips. But the length of the cutter is directly related to the height of the cutter and the width (kerf) of the cutter. No tooth cuts alone in a loop. If all the cutters are not the same height, the chain will bounce more (at a chain speed of 60 mph this will translate into vibration), and higher cutters may participate more in the cut, preventing lower cutters from taking as thick of a chip. Getting all of the cutting teeth the same same height on a saw is generally referred to as jointing.
View attachment 552891

Similarly, as the cutter is worn / filed / ground back, it becomes narrower, affecting the kerf. A narrower tooth may not fully clear the side wall of the kerf, making the next tooth scrape it a second time. Getting all of the cutting teeth to extend the same distance sideways on a saw is generally referred to as setting.



View attachment 552893
A saw that is not properly jointed and set may still cut, but it will not be as efficient or as smooth.

The OP (remember the OP?) asked about rounding over depth gauges. Note the illustration below *but note that position '3' continues as long as the tooth is in the cut - it does not 'porpoise' continuously along the guide bar*. If the depth gauge is filed off flat, it will leave a sharp corner that 1) can dig into the wood, causing drag, and 2) act as a fulcrum point to push the cutting edges farther from the wood. Since we cannot know the exact angle that a cutter will always rock to (depends on tension, sharpness, wood, etc.), we use a rounded profile that will essentially maintain the same offset, regardless of the cutter angle / position.

View attachment 552894




- A decent grinder is an investment, for those who use them, and especially those who sharpen or restore a lot of chains. Good ones keep much of their value.

- Dressing the wheel takes seconds. Less time than tapping out a file over the course of sharpening a loop.

- Don't buy a diamond wheel (I don't have one - they are only for carbide chains). I don't own a CBN wheel (for standard chains) either.

- The grinder does not chew up chains - the operator chews up chains using the grinder. (Just for fun, mail me a new chain and file, and let me show you how badly I can chew it up by filing incorrectly!).

Philbert
I stand corrected and thank you Philbert for your breakdown in depth. That makes sense now seeing it explained step by step. Yes I remember the OP'S question regarding rakers shape and got side tracked in thinking with the cutter length which I was all wet in my thinking anyways haha. Where'd you end up finding all the great info you got regarding chain and filing Philbert? I love reading your posts cuz there's always so much to take in on the subject. Any who, safe cuttin everyone
 
You may be right that it doesn't matter, much anyway. Just for discussion's sake, consider your chain resting on its bar. On a new chain all the rakers and teeth are the same.
Once you damage one, then fix it by filing, its cutter edge will be lower. Thats because the teeth are slanted and become lower as you file them. When you file the corresponding raker it will match that tooth, but both that tooth and that raker will be lower than the rest(as mesured from the bar). Therefore as the chain runs thru the kerf, that tooth and raker will be shorter (closer to the bar) and cutting less or not at all ... theoretically! In the field it may not matter. IDK.
TomJV
Seeing it in the breakdown Philbert shared totally makes sense now, which bombed my theory all to hell but oh well that's part of life and learning. I like learnin so it's nice to have my thinkin set straight
 
Next, a word about rakers. I did some reading and found out that the .025/.030 mantra bears looking into. Really, it may only be a starting point. Why?
Chip size and hence cutting speed, is determined by cutting angle or raker angle. Consider the angle formed between raker, the cutter and the wood. This angle controls how the saw bites the wood. Further, consider how the angle changes as the chain ages. Basically, it's a right triangle with the 90deg corner above the raker. The leg adjacent to the 90deg is the raker depth and is constant .025/.030. We'll refer to the angle at the cutter as the "cutter angle". As the chain ages and the gullet becomes longer, so does the long leg of the triangle, making the cutter angle smaller and smaller. To maintain the cutter angle, the raker height must increase as the gullet length increases.

Raker Angle - the measure of the drop from a level line across the tops of the cutters to the height of the raker. As the tooth gets shorter, the angle decreases.

I tried to illustrate this in the attached pic. I added the blue line to show the angle in question. Just imagine what happens to the angle at the cutter as the gullet becomes longer and raker height remains the same.

I copied this from another post:
" I adjust my rakers height by first measuring 3 or 4 gullet widths. I then divide the average gullet width by 10 and use that as my raker depth for the whole chain. "
The upshot is, an older chain may wind up with a .035 or .040 raker depth to maintain the raker angle.

I thought this makes good sense, and wanted to share it here.
TomJV
 

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Me? I'm having trouble getting my raker tools to work. For the last ten years, I've used my dremel tool to do my chains. I decided to learn to file.
Today, I'm trying to learn raker maintenance. I have two tools, the Husqy and the other one in the image. The Husqy just doesn't do ANYTHING for me. It doesn't match up with the teeth. The one in the picture seems to make sense, but mine doesn't do THAT. It's a 3/8" tool and so's the chain. Go figure. The other one rocks and rolls all over the place to the point where I don't know when to file. I figured there's got to be a better way. Maybe I'll post some pictures. depth gauge1.jpg husqy1.jpg
 
"I did some reading and found out that the .025/.030 mantra is BS."

I would not call it 'BS'.

There are perspectives on fixed depth gauge offsets, and 'progressive' depth gauge offsets (although the term 'progressive' will get you into deep BS with some members in the political threads).

Here are some related threads:

http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...ly-progressive-depth-raker-generators.114624/

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/progressive-filing-of-rakers-stihls-opinion.76271/

Philbert
 
About your question 10 degrees or flat I could not tell a difference either way myself (6 or half dozen either way IMO)... but im sure there has to be a logical reason behind it. (I too would like to know)

When I first started grind sharpening my chains I did the 10 degrees. After awhile it seemed like and extra step that wasn't doing anything for my cutting, so I stopped. I didn't notice any difference. That was years ago. This spring, I might get a test log set up and try it again.
 

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