Chainsaw 2 Cycle Oil Poll

[sean donato]

The DPF doesn't add on soot back into the motor. The EGR does.

No, no direct load, it needs high exhaust temps which leads to higher oil temps in and round the head. More heat, more the oil breaks down. You know, vicious cycle.

Eh. You might not think so, but that is a mistaken notion. There is a very specific reason why the oil pans are built into the bottom of the truck like they are, and it isn't only because the oil runs downhill after circulating through the engine. granted, the oil cooler mechanisms are very important, but they are considered supplemental cooling to whatever cooling is done by the oil pan.

I bought a new Great Dane mower once, and immediately made an observation that the hydraulic oil would overheat. It was literally a 2 inch square tube arranged vertically, with only a 1 quart reserve capacity for the entire machine. I asked where the oil cooler was, and they said that that tiny tank sufficient. The "seller" was sadly mistaken, and had successfully dumped a overheating lemon on me.

I have dealt with many other hydraulic devices. Almost all of them rely on the sump volume and shape to acquire sufficient cooling for the circulating oil. For example: show me a picture of a log splitter that has an oil cooler on it.

I'm sure a log splitter oil cooler may exist somewhere, but I hope you'll acknowledge that the sump volume and shape are important cooling factors that any engineer would consider as part of the cooling system for the oil.

Comparing an engine oil sump to a log splitter or any other hydraulic system is pretty meaningless. Many larger splitters have coolers, and the ones that dont have huge oil capacity vs actually system needs, in the hope that the huge sump will dissipate heat fast enough not to need a cooler. Economics at its finest there. We can simply look at heavy equipment for that answer, many, many dozers, loaders ect have liquid to liquid heat exchangers that have engine coolant running through them or external coolers for hydraulics. Many factors affect oil pan design, cooling isn't much of one, at least not for any liquid cooled engine with any active oil cooling. At best the pan has limited surface area to promote cooling. Hence the need for liquid to liquid heat exchangers. Or in the case of some air cooled diesels, oil to air heat exchangers. Deutz comes ro mind off the top of my head for air cooled.
That does not detract that engine oil is commonly used as a cooling medium, just the pan isn't the major player you seem to think it does. Even when taken into consideration semi modern vehicle packaging where the oil pan is mostly shrouded, or equipment where the pan is completely enclosed and has basically zero airflow.

Although I never worked on one, I was told that Case backhoes many years back had two oil pumps: one on the front of the engine, and one on the rear. Just to make sure it got oil, regardless of the slope it was running on.

I'm not sure about that, duel pumps would allow air to enter oil system when one was starved of oil. I've seen some pretty funky pan designs to cope with hard angles though, weird layered sumps with trap doors, extra deep sumps etc. In situations where extreme angles are encountered, it would be more feasible to utilize a dry sump. This allows the system to have a place for the entrapped air to escape and make sure the engine has plenty of oil to circulate.

 

[pdqdl]

liquid to liquid heat exchangers

Hmmm... I wonder why liquid to liquid is so popular. Thinking....

Gee! Maybe that is for warming up the oil quicker in cold climates? Those LTL coolers are better at keeping the oil temperature regulated than they are at simple cooling. Air cooling with forced air supply is superior, if you are only after the maximum cooling capacity.

 

[Lionsfan]

Hmmm... I wonder why liquid to liquid is so popular. Thinking....

Gee! Maybe that is for warming up the oil quicker in cold climates? Those LTL coolers are better at keeping the oil temperature regulated than they are at simple cooling. Air cooling with forced air supply is superior, if you are only after the maximum cooling capacity.

Negative. In a marine application there is very little if any air flow across the pan. It is 100% the responsibility of the oil cooler to keep the oil from overheating.

 

[North by Northwest]

Mine doesn't smoke or leak it just magically disappears . Engine in my truck with 353,000 is a 4.3 vortec has a 4.5 qt capacity with filter

Likely you Egr. valve recycling or slightly worn valve guides which only emit smoke on start up , the 5.3 was even worse .

 

[pdqdl]

...just the pan isn't the major player you seem to think it does.

I never suggested any relative value to the total cooling of the system. I did point out that larger sumps provide more cooling, and I inferred that they reduced the cycling rate of the oil through whatever it was being heated by. I argued with others that were asserting that the oil pan plays no role in the cooling of the system. And I am right about that.

 

[sean donato]

Hmmm... I wonder why liquid to liquid is so popular. Thinking....

Gee! Maybe that is for warming up the oil quicker in cold climates? Those LTL coolers are better at keeping the oil temperature regulated than they are at simple cooling. Air cooling with forced air supply is superior, if you are only after the maximum cooling capacity.

Sure, it will warm the oil as well. Cooling is regulating temp BTW. It all about keeping temperatures at a reasonable level for performance.

 

[North by Northwest]

No, no direct load, it needs high exhaust temps which leads to higher oil temps in and round the head. More heat, more the oil breaks down. You know, vicious cycle.

Comparing an engine oil sump to a log splitter or any other hydraulic system is pretty meaningless. Many larger splitters have coolers, and the ones that dont have huge oil capacity vs actually system needs, in the hope that the huge sump will dissipate heat fast enough not to need a cooler. Economics at its finest there. We can simply look at heavy equipment for that answer, many, many dozers, loaders ect have liquid to liquid heat exchangers that have engine coolant running through them or external coolers for hydraulics. Many factors affect oil pan design, cooling isn't much of one, at least not for any liquid cooled engine with any active oil cooling. At best the pan has limited surface area to promote cooling. Hence the need for liquid to liquid heat exchangers. Or in the case of some air cooled diesels, oil to air heat exchangers. Deutz comes ro mind off the top of my head for air cooled.
That does not detract that engine oil is commonly used as a cooling medium, just the pan isn't the major player you seem to think it does. Even when taken into consideration semi modern vehicle packaging where the oil pan is mostly shrouded, or equipment where the pan is completely enclosed and has basically zero airflow.



I'm not sure about that, duel pumps would allow air to enter oil system when one was starved of oil. I've seen some pretty funky pan designs to cope with hard angles though, weird layered sumps with trap doors, extra deep sumps etc. In situations where extreme angles are encountered, it would be more feasible to utilize a dry sump. This allows the system to have a place for the entrapped air to escape and make sure the engine has plenty of oil to circulate.

Never heard of dual oil pump applications within any Diesel engines that i serviced . I agree with Sean that the downside out weighs the upside potential in dual pump requirement . Cummins , Cat, Detroit & Mercedes & Volvo . The Mercedes & Volvo were the cleanest . The Cat & Detroit the dirtiest . The large sump trap doors & anti surge baffles were rather effective against oil starvation on uneven ground or steep slope usage . My John Deere diesel back hoe utilizes the anti surge sump baffle design and its mid 70 's technolgy . lol.

 

[HansFranz]

Although I never worked on one, I was told that Case backhoes many years back had two oil pumps: one on the front of the engine, and one on the rear. Just to make sure it got oil, regardless of the slope it was running on.

Dunno about oil pumps for the engine, but the (huge) gear pump on the front of my Case 580 CK "Construction King" (1966?) runs the hydraulics.

 

[sean donato]

I never suggested any relative value to the total cooling of the system. I did point out that larger sumps provide more cooling, and I inferred that they reduced the cycling rate of the oil through whatever it was being heated by. I argued with others that were asserting that the oil pan plays no role in the cooling of the system. And I am right about that.

"Eh. You might not think so, but that is a mistaken notion. There is a very specific reason why the oil pans are built into the bottom of the truck like they are, and it isn't only because the oil runs downhill after circulating through the engine. granted, the oil cooler mechanisms are very important, but they are considered supplemental cooling to whatever cooling is done by the oil pan."
You say it's an important part of cooling and any other system is secondary to the cooling the pan does. No, the pan is on the bottom because of gravity and economics. Dry pumps are expensive and noisy. Other wise superior to the cheap oil pan.

 

[sean donato]

Never heard of dual oil pump applications within any Diesel engines that i serviced . Cummins , Cat, Detroit & Mercedes & Volvo . The Mercedes & Volvo were the cleanest . The Cat & Detroit the dirtiest . The large sump trap doors & anti surge baffles were rather effective against oil starvation on uneven ground or steep slope usage . My John Deere diesel back hoe utilizes the anti surge sump baffle design and its mid 70 's technolgy . lol.

Yeah, I've never seen a duel pump set up either, that wasn't some sort of dry sump and application specific. Ie, racing, rock bouncers et...
The baffles and trap doors work wonderful well, as you said it's some pretty old tech.

 

[pdqdl]

Negative. In a marine application there is very little if any air flow across the pan. It is 100% the responsibility of the oil cooler to keep the oil from overheating.

C'mon man! We weren't talking about marine applications. I'll counter with this one:

Show me a push mower with liquid to liquid oil cooling.


Hmmm... No liquid to liquid oil coolers on these machines:



Heck! This one doesn't even have an oil pan:



Now can we all stop looking for stuff to argue about, and perhaps focus on learning about what is going on and how stuff works?

 

[North by Northwest]

I never suggested any relative value to the total cooling of the system. I did point out that larger sumps provide more cooling, and I inferred that they reduced the cycling rate of the oil through whatever it was being heated by. I argued with others that were asserting that the oil pan plays no role in the cooling of the system. And I am right about that.

Yeah, I've never seen a duel pump set up either, that wasn't some sort of dry sump and application specific. Ie, racing, rock bouncers et...
The baffles and trap doors work wonderful well, as you said it's some pretty old tech.

Vintage actually Sean , kinda like me

 

[sean donato]

C'mon man! We weren't talking about marine applications. I'll counter with this one:

View attachment 1129624 Show me a push mower with liquid to liquid oil cooling.


Hmmm... No liquid to liquid oil coolers on these machines:
View attachment 1129628 View attachment 1129629 View attachment 1129633


Heck! This one doesn't even have an oil pan:
View attachment 1129625


Now can we all stop looking for stuff to argue about, and perhaps focus on learning about what is going on and how stuff works?

every one of those machines has a liquid to liquid oil cooler built into the engine. Idk what you think you're trying to prove, but you're most certainly wrong about oil pan being much of any cooling factor in liquid cooled engines.
We're arguing because you're just flat out wrong.
Edit: save the agco, which has a huge oil cooler built into the engine.
The crusher uses a volvo engine, which has a liquid to liquid oil cooler in the side of the block.

 

[sean donato]

Vintage actually Sean , kinda like me

Yes, vintage lol.

 

[North by Northwest]

I never suggested any relative value to the total cooling of the system. I did point out that larger sumps provide more cooling, and I inferred that they reduced the cycling rate of the oil through whatever it was being heated by. I argued with others that were asserting that the oil pan plays no role in the cooling of the system. And I am right about that.

Large volumes of oil , certainly do have potential for reducing oil operating temperatures & oil degradation . However , without supplemental oil coolers or exotic metal to better dissapate interal heat & integral cooling fins , sump pans are marginal within effective heat retention abatement , within todays heavy equipment engine designs that i have seen . Engines today stress cooling & lubrication systems more than ever , due to their inherent design & environmental emmission add ons .

 

[Lionsfan]

C'mon man! We weren't talking about marine applications. I'll counter with this one:

View attachment 1129624 Show me a push mower with liquid to liquid oil cooling.


Hmmm... No liquid to liquid oil coolers on these machines:
View attachment 1129628 View attachment 1129629 View attachment 1129633


Heck! This one doesn't even have an oil pan:
View attachment 1129625


Now can we all stop looking for stuff to argue about, and perhaps focus on learning about what is going on and how stuff works?

Ah, but my point is valid, you must admit.

 

[North by Northwest]

Ah, but my point is valid, you must admit.

With all that water surrounding the hull , a few heat exchangers would suffice for effective operating temperature optimization brother !

 

[Lionsfan]

With all that water surrounding the hull , a few heat exchangers would suffice for effective operating temperature optimization brother !

Our transmissions are all raw water cooled, if that counts.

 

[pdqdl]

"Eh. You might not think so, but that is a mistaken notion. There is a very specific reason why the oil pans are built into the bottom of the truck like they are, and it isn't only because the oil runs downhill after circulating through the engine. granted, the oil cooler mechanisms are very important, but they are considered supplemental cooling to whatever cooling is done by the oil pan."
You say it's an important part of cooling and any other system is secondary to the cooling the pan does. No, the pan is on the bottom because of gravity and economics. Dry pumps are expensive and noisy. Other wise superior to the cheap oil pan.

I said my say, I'll just challenge you to find a truck somewhere that has a radiator and an oil cooler, yet doesn't have an oil pan and sump. That being said, I can show you lots and lots of trucks that have no oil cooler whatsoever, and they rely entirely upon the oil pan. Face it: the oil pan is the first heat dissipation device, then the oil gets pumped off to the oil cooler.

I'll let you contend with this quote from another source:

"Engine oil cooling is primarily facilitated by the oil pan rather than the oil coolers. While oil coolers play a significant role in maintaining optimal oil temperatures, the oil pan's design and placement contribute significantly to the overall cooling process. Here's the breakdown of why the oil pan is crucial for oil cooling:​

1. Heat Dissipation through Surface Area: The oil pan is in direct contact with the bottom of the engine block, which acts as a massive heat sink. As the engine runs, generating heat, this heat is conducted to the oil pan. The larger surface area of the oil pan allows for more effective dissipation of heat into the surrounding air.
2. Oil Reservoir and Heat Absorption: The oil pan holds the majority of the engine oil. As the engine operates, the hot oil returns to the oil pan after circulating through various engine components. The oil pan's design allows for greater contact between the hot oil and the pan itself, enabling heat transfer from the oil to the metal of the pan. This heat absorption process aids in cooling the oil.
3. Natural Convection and Cooling: The oil in the pan, after absorbing heat, tends to rise due to its lower density when heated. As the hotter oil rises, it comes in contact with the cooler sections of the oil pan and the surrounding air, leading to natural convection currents that aid in cooling the oil.
4. Oil Cooler Assistance: While oil coolers play a crucial role, especially in high-performance or heavy-duty engines, they primarily assist in situations of excessive heat. Oil coolers are often used in conjunction with the oil pan to further lower oil temperatures, especially in conditions where the engine is under heavy load or extreme operating temperatures.
5. Temperature Regulation: The oil pan, due to its proximity to the engine and its ability to absorb and dissipate heat, helps in regulating the overall temperature of the engine oil. This regulation is crucial for maintaining the oil's viscosity and lubricating properties, ensuring optimal engine performance and longevity.

In essence, while oil coolers are significant components in managing oil temperatures, the oil pan's design, position, and function as a reservoir for oil and a heat sink play a primary role in the cooling process. The combination of both the oil pan and oil coolers works synergistically to ensure the engine oil remains at the ideal operating temperature for efficient engine performance.

 

[pdqdl]

crusher uses a volvo engine,

That one has a Deutz diesel: air cooled. No water present to cool with.