Chinese Elm or ?

[Wood Doctor]

Well an elm tree was removed that was threatening a farmhouse and the tree cutter dropped all the logs off at my place. He thought it was a huge Chinese elm tree, but I have some doubts. First of all, I always thought they are rarely more than 50' tall and usually only live at most 50 years before they die. That means the trunks would usually run 3' dia. or less.

The tree cutter bucked almost all the logs to firewood length (16" to 18") for me, and the largest rounds are over 4' across (I kid you not). This tree was huge. I'll have to noodle cut at least 8 of them into quarters or sixths and several more in half in order to split them. When he unloaded the hydraulic trailer, a few of the larger ones landed flat. Two men together cannot flip them onto their sides for noodling. Lacking a truck picker, a tractor, or a hoist, I imagine we will have to use 8' levers and a fulcrum to eventually place them in "wheel" position for noodling. I estimate a few at 500 lb rounds in 16" lengths. He told me that it was all that his Stihl MS460 with a 32" bar could do to buck them up.

The bark is rough and nearly two inches thick at the trunk. I have to wonder if this was really a Chinese elm tree. I'll take some Pics, but based on this description WDYT? Also, lacking a tractor or any heavy equipment, any ideas on the easiest way to stand these up in wheel position?

 

[fuzz1500]

I love big trees !! Cant wait to see pics

 

[Whitespider]

What you're describing ain't Chinese Elm... but it could easily be Siberian Elm.
The two are not the same... the Siberian Elm is often called Chinese Elm by people who don't know any better.

When I moved into the place I'm livin' now it had a huge Siberian Elm in the front yard, it stood close to 70 feet tall with a trunk diameter something over 3 feet.
When I took that monster down my son counted 93 rings in the stump.
On its native range they can live up to 150 years.

Oh... and the moisture content of "green" Siberian Elm is around 110-115%... meaning, if one of those rounds weighs 500 pounds green, you'll get something in the neighborhood of 230-250 pounds of seasoned (15-20% moisture) wood from it. Likely even less when you factor in the bark.

I sure hope you have a good, stout hydraulic spliter... 'cause you're gonna' need it...

 

[Cheesecutter]

I would lean toward American elm just based on your size description. 2 inch thick rough bark and 4 foot rounds almost describe cottonwood.

 

[Bushmans]

Definitely want to see some pics. I cut down an American Elm one time that was about 36" and that was a ton of work. I gave some of the biggest rounds away because I didn't want to break the splitter. I have some Siberian in the back yard that needs cut down. Disease killed them. Biggest is maybe 8". Good Luck!

 

[haveawoody]

Easiest way to tell is take one round and split it green.
If it's American elm you will know LOL
If it's Siberian it's no picnic either but Siberian will ooze water when splitting.

I doubt it's Chinese elm although a friend of mine has one 80ft high in his backyard with very thick bark at the bottom.
I helped him prune it one day and got itchy/rash hands and arms that night from it.

I seem to remember a difference in color of green split American and Siberian, almost white for American and brownish for Siberian.
Only ever split 1 Siberian, lots of work to split and low btu wood best kept for fireworks nights and camping

 

[bayard]

Easiest way to tell is take one round and split it green.
If it's American elm you will know LOL
If it's Siberian it's no picnic either but Siberian will ooze water when splitting.

I doubt it's Chinese elm although a friend of mine has one 80ft high in his backyard with very thick bark at the bottom.
I helped him prune it one day and got itchy/rash hands and arms that night from it.

I seem to remember a difference in color of green split American and Siberian, almost white for American and brownish for Siberian.
Only ever split 1 Siberian, lots of work to split and low btu wood best kept for fireworks nights and camping

maybe red elm,ulmus americana? i cut some last week the wettest wood i have ever seen.and HEAVY.

 

[Whitespider]

maybe red elm,ulmus americana? i cut some last week the wettest wood i have ever seen.and HEAVY.

Oh brother...
Red Elm is not ulmus americana... it is ulmas rubra...
American Elm is ulmus americana...
Yeah ulmus americana (American Elm not Red Elm) is very wet with a green moisture content of 90-95%...
But ulmas rubra (Red Elm not ulmus americana) is not near as wet... Red Elm will not ooze or squirt water, but American elm will... often Red Oak will appear to be wetter than Red Elm (Slippery Elm).

Honestly, I am amazed by the number of people that confuse American Elm and Red Elm... the two are not even close in characteristics.
*

 

[Wood Doctor]

I would lean toward American elm just based on your size description. 2 inch thick rough bark and 4 foot rounds almost describe cottonwood.

Believe me, it is not cottonwood. That's the Nebraska state tree. I've probably cut 90 cords of that stuff in the last 25 years. I am leaning toward American elm. I do not see how Chinese elm could ever be this massive.

 

[lindnova]

We used to call Siberian elm Chinese before we knew better. We need to see pictures!

I would lean towards American elm for your tree, but Siberians can get big.

Usually Siberians have falling branches as they have pretty brittle wood. I consider them a garbage tree and have nearly eradicated them off my property. Any field edges or open ground (field or gopher hill) and they mass reproduce like crazy. They make very good firewood for my outdoor furnace though. I have about 3 cords of them in my next year supply and 2 - 12" trees left to cut down and a few small ones continue to survive or miss herbicide in my CRP.

Siberian elm has smaller leaves and more contrast in the bark - hard to explain. They seem to be partially resistant to dutch elm. When they do get it it takes a while and the branch tips 'witch broom' out for a few years before they die.

 

[3000 FPS]

I have cut some Chinese elm and have never seen it with 2" bark.

 

[zogger]

Sledge hammer in some wooden wedges under one end, from the sides. It'll start to go up. Then slip your jack under it in the middle when you have enough space. Pick it up. Block it there. Then put the jack up on some boards for more height. Lift it again. That should be enough to tip it.

 

[pyankura]

I agree with this below...not bad for milder temps but it burns very quick and no coals. Free btu is free btu but it is a bear to split and heavy as hell when wet. The neighbor had about a 50' cut down so I told them to dump on my yard. I thought red elm very similar leaves but they are either smaller or bigger than the red, I think smaller. I gave the rest to my uncle for his OWB cause I have only room for hard wood. I'm not a firewood snob like my uncle thinks, hehe, just don't have room.

Easiest way to tell is take one round and split it green.
If it's American elm you will know LOL
If it's Siberian it's no picnic either but Siberian will ooze water when splitting.

I doubt it's Chinese elm although a friend of mine has one 80ft high in his backyard with very thick bark at the bottom.
I helped him prune it one day and got itchy/rash hands and arms that night from it.

I seem to remember a difference in color of green split American and Siberian, almost white for American and brownish for Siberian.
Only ever split 1 Siberian, lots of work to split and low btu wood best kept for fireworks nights and camping

 

[Whitespider]

Small leaves... both the Chinese and Siberian Elm have small leaves.
I seriously doubt there many, if any, Chinese Elm in Nebraska... Siberian Elm, on the other hand, is likely widespread throughout the state.

The Chinese Elm is a small tree, with small leaves, and very distinct peeling bark... thin, multi-colored, peeling bark that may show blotches of grays, reds, oranges, tans, yellows, and pinks depending.
It is planted in city yards, parks, and such as an ornamental (i.e., for pretty, not for shade)... often called Lacebark Elm.

The Siberian Elm is a much larger tree, also with smaller leaves but with thicker bark... thick, deeply furrowed bark that can get several inches thick on larger, older trees.
Often planted as a shade tree especially in the plains states because of its hardiness... it was also extensively planted during, and shortly after the Dust Bowl Days.
It was first introduced to the US in the 1860's... 100+ year old trees in farm yards and such are not uncommon.

The heartwood of Siberian Elm is darker than American Elm... some people believe they have Slippery (Red) Elm when they cut/split it, but they're wrong. If it's very wet with reddish/brownish heartwood it's likely Siberian Elm. The Slippery (Red) Elm has a very thin layer of white sapwood (maybe an inch, maybe two inches on large trees)... Siberian Elm has several inches of light-colored sapwood.


It's very simple to identify American Elm by the bark... looking at the end-cut, American Elm bark will have alternating layers of dark and creamy white (very distinctly white).
If the bark does not have those creamy white layers it flat ain't American Elm.

 

[haveawoody]

bayard,

Could be red elm, not much around my parts to have a decent knowledge of it though.
Only ever cut 1 and the firewood from it was primo.

I have a feeling from the bark description it's either American or Siberian.
Can almost rule out Chinese elm it's got a pretty unusual bark.

An 80ft American elm seems possible but I've only seen a few that tall, I bet it turns out to be Siberian.
Siberian thank heavens is a very rare tree here also so have only seen and dropped one of them.
Even as shoulder wood it was right up there with box elder, not quite as good though LOL

 

[haveawoody]

pyankura,

I think wood doctor is pretty far south so shoulder season happens for a long time.
Siberian might be fine in the south and probably burns pretty clean, most elms do.
Got to burn something so so when it's not brutal out.

I'm no wood snob either but such a long drying time for Siberian, lots of very heavy rounds, hard to split, hard to burn and poor btu here in winter wonderland add up to cold feet and unhappy wife LOL

 

[bayard]

bayard,

Could be red elm, not much around my parts to have a decent knowledge of it though.
Only ever cut 1 and the firewood from it was primo.

I have a feeling from the bark description it's either American or Siberian.
Can almost rule out Chinese elm it's got a pretty unusual bark.

An 80ft American elm seems possible but I've only seen a few that tall, I bet it turns out to be Siberian.
Siberian thank heavens is a very rare tree here also so have only seen and dropped one of them.
Even as shoulder wood it was right up there with box elder, not quite as good though LOL

the tree in question was 4 ft in dia. and 110-120 ft tall. the bark was 1.5 to 2 inches thick the dark heartwood was 95% of the dia.?

 

[Wood Doctor]

Well, here are the long-awaited Pics I took today at the storage facility where I will be seasoning this monster. First, here is a 50-year old ash tree round that I cut about 3' from the base. I have it perched atop my new noodling brackets that I made in my shop. These hold the round firmly about 4" off the ground to prevent grounding out the bar and chain:


They worked perfectly. I cut this one in half with my Makita 6401 BBK. That allowed two men to lift it and carry it to the log splitter. This round was about 24" dia and delivered 40 logs for the stove. I seasoned this round and several other from the same tree a full year. Next I turned my attention to the so-called "Chinese" elm. Here is the fourth round up from the base. The tree did not fork until the 6th round up:



Note that is solid all the way to the core. I counted 65 rings on this piece. Then I decided to take a Pic of the base cut round. It's even larger and resting at an angle:



I talked to another local senior citizen who claims that it could be Chinese elm, but even he admits that if so, its the biggest bunch of Chinese elm rounds that he has ever seen and solid all the way to the center. We noodled five of them in half today and had to quarter three more in order to add them to the drying stack. Another seven are awaiting noodling, three of which are lying flat and will somehow have to be lifted into wheel position.

 

[haveawoody]

Wood Doctor,
I see Ash ash and more ash,
If life was only that good

Pretty sure it's all ash in the pictures.
White and black.

Piece on the first picture behind the white ash looks like American elm.
Good score no matter what, toastey feet next year

Not Chinese and not Siberian Elm.

 

[mn woodcutter]

I agree. looks like ash.