There is that distinct white ring right next to he bark in the previous pics. The Siberian elm I have cut here does not have that.
Chinese Elm or ?
- Thread starter Wood Doctor
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mn woodcutter
ArboristSite Guru
question: is there an easy way to tell the differences in dead standing elm which is red, American, Chinese, etc? thanks for any help.
Regarding wood doctors pics, the first picture is definately Ash as he stated, the next two sure looks like siberian elm to me - at least very similar to the dozens I've cut here.
When standing dead, as in bark off siberian and red elm look very similar, both will have a pretty consistant redish color thru-out. American will have lighter coloration more white/brownish. American goes to punk quickly when in this form.
One thing I've noticed about siberian elm - when cut live, split and seasoned it makes medocre firewood, when you find it standing dead, bark completely off and the top already completely dry - it makes much better firewood...
Siberian will usually be found on land that has been disturbed in the past, as in cleared and then left to regrow- the crap trees then take over like siberian, boxelder, buckthorn and mulberry.
When standing dead, as in bark off siberian and red elm look very similar, both will have a pretty consistant redish color thru-out. American will have lighter coloration more white/brownish. American goes to punk quickly when in this form.
One thing I've noticed about siberian elm - when cut live, split and seasoned it makes medocre firewood, when you find it standing dead, bark completely off and the top already completely dry - it makes much better firewood...
Siberian will usually be found on land that has been disturbed in the past, as in cleared and then left to regrow- the crap trees then take over like siberian, boxelder, buckthorn and mulberry.
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No friggin' way a 4 ft diameter, 110 ft tall tree was Slippery (Red) Elm...
You mean SIBERIAN ELM‼
Listen, the reason I keep harping on that is because Chinese Elm is a hard, dense wood that makes damn good firewood... Siberian Elm makes mediocre firewood at best. The two should not, can not, be confused... they are night-'n'-day‼ When you talk Chinese Elm I think of something between Red Elm and Rock Elm, when you talk Siberian Elm I think of something lesser than American Elm‼
To answer your question... no, there ain't any easy way to tell the difference in standing-dead. But as I posted earlier, the creamy white layers in the bark will positively identify American Elm... positively‼ Experience and knowledge is the only way... I can usually just look at a standing-dead and be 75% sure of what it is.
Those big rounds posted by @Wood Doctor are Siberian Elm, as the moisture comes out the wood will lighten considerably. It will end up almost white at the bark and gradually get darker towards the center... leaving the center third or so noticeably "redder/browner". It may be one of the hybrids/variants of the Siberian crossed with something else (commonly planted in yards)... but it's still Siberian Elm‼ It ain't American Elm, it ain't Red Elm, and it surely ain't Chinese Elm‼ there is another possibility, it could be a Japanese Elm, but I doubt it... I don't believe the Japanese Elm would do well in Nebraska.
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You mean SIBERIAN ELM‼
Listen, the reason I keep harping on that is because Chinese Elm is a hard, dense wood that makes damn good firewood... Siberian Elm makes mediocre firewood at best. The two should not, can not, be confused... they are night-'n'-day‼ When you talk Chinese Elm I think of something between Red Elm and Rock Elm, when you talk Siberian Elm I think of something lesser than American Elm‼
To answer your question... no, there ain't any easy way to tell the difference in standing-dead. But as I posted earlier, the creamy white layers in the bark will positively identify American Elm... positively‼ Experience and knowledge is the only way... I can usually just look at a standing-dead and be 75% sure of what it is.
Those big rounds posted by @Wood Doctor are Siberian Elm, as the moisture comes out the wood will lighten considerably. It will end up almost white at the bark and gradually get darker towards the center... leaving the center third or so noticeably "redder/browner". It may be one of the hybrids/variants of the Siberian crossed with something else (commonly planted in yards)... but it's still Siberian Elm‼ It ain't American Elm, it ain't Red Elm, and it surely ain't Chinese Elm‼ there is another possibility, it could be a Japanese Elm, but I doubt it... I don't believe the Japanese Elm would do well in Nebraska.
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I think Elm maybe? Look at the color I thought Ash is lighter?
brewmonster
ArboristSite Operative
Thank you, Whitespider, for making all this so clear. I bet a lot of people in the midwest have never seen true Chinese elm. It's a shame about the confusion with Siberian. When you see Chinese elm, you will never get them mixed up again; that bark is unmistakeable.
And can we please never again hear the term "piss elm"?
And can we please never again hear the term "piss elm"?
In my neighborhood Siberian is quite common as yard trees and almost everyone calls them Chinese Elm - I've given up on correcting them.
I've never seen a true Chinese Elm here in MN, they might exist but pretty rare indeed.
Ironwood is another almost always miss identified. A coworker swears they could barely cut them with their chainsaw and it dulled chains quickly. I did some cutting at their property and all I saw was basswood, red oak and elm. Another was bragging about this mythical ironwood in his dads wood stacks - I had him bring me a split and it sure looked like ash to me ;-)
I've never seen a true Chinese Elm here in MN, they might exist but pretty rare indeed.
Ironwood is another almost always miss identified. A coworker swears they could barely cut them with their chainsaw and it dulled chains quickly. I did some cutting at their property and all I saw was basswood, red oak and elm. Another was bragging about this mythical ironwood in his dads wood stacks - I had him bring me a split and it sure looked like ash to me ;-)
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The ash is the first Pic, resting on my shop-made supports for noodle cutting. Right after I took that Pic, I noodled it in half, split it, and it's now burning. That round had need drying over a year and it's fabulous firewood.
I'm leaning toward White Spider's analysis that this other bigger beast is Siberian elm, not Chinese nor American. Chinese elms just plain don't live 75 years and get this big. My way of distinguishing red elm is to examine the bark. It tends to be even thicker and more scraggly. When dry, red elm splits nicely and has a straight grain.
We have another cross-breed elm species growing around here and nobody knows what it is. So, I call it spiral grain elm because it is impossible to split. When it checks up, the pattern of the check-ups is circular. Trying to split it on the edges breaks off small chunks. Trying to split it in the center will stall out a 2-stage 30-ton splitter. I am hoping that what I was given here is anything but that. Time will tell as it dries. If I start seeing circular check ups, I may start tearing my hair out because all of it will have to be thrown into a bonfire.
I'm leaning toward White Spider's analysis that this other bigger beast is Siberian elm, not Chinese nor American. Chinese elms just plain don't live 75 years and get this big. My way of distinguishing red elm is to examine the bark. It tends to be even thicker and more scraggly. When dry, red elm splits nicely and has a straight grain.
We have another cross-breed elm species growing around here and nobody knows what it is. So, I call it spiral grain elm because it is impossible to split. When it checks up, the pattern of the check-ups is circular. Trying to split it on the edges breaks off small chunks. Trying to split it in the center will stall out a 2-stage 30-ton splitter. I am hoping that what I was given here is anything but that. Time will tell as it dries. If I start seeing circular check ups, I may start tearing my hair out because all of it will have to be thrown into a bonfire.
I used to live in California and there is Chinese elm all over the place there. I had one in my yard and removed it. Whitespider is correct on the bark and identification on the Chinese elm. Here in Wyoming where I now live I have not seen a Chinese elm here but instead a lot of what looks like Siberian elm.
Of course I'm just guessin', but likely that "spiral grain" elm is just another variant of the Siberian Elm.
At one time, before it proved to be invasive, the Siberian Elm was thought to possibly be the "replacement" for the American Elm that was being devastated by DED. Dozens of cultivators were developed and tested... it was crossed with all sorts of elms, both domestic and imported. Many of those cultivators "went wild", and "in the wild" the Siberian Elm naturally breeds the engineered genes out... eventually becoming plain ol' Siberian Elm again. The thing is, many of those original cultivators are still living, planted in shelter belts, farmyards, and even along city streets of the Midwest and plains... and they're still makin' seeds and escaping into "the wild".
The worst thing about the Siberian Elm (we now know) is that it naturally hybridizes "in the wild" with the Slippery (Red) Elm, and eventually breeds the Slippery elm out of existence. There are areas of the Midwest and plains where the Slippery Elm is all but extinct because of the double hit... the double hit of DED and Siberian Elm. That's one of the reasons the Siberian Elm was thought to be a replacement for the American Elm... both the Slippery and Siberian Elms showed a certain amount of resistance to DED, and the two were easily hybridized. Where we went wrong was, it wasn't so much that the trees were resistant... it was more that DED had a preference for American Elm. Once the American Elm was all but gone, DED simply morphed itself into something with a preference for Slippery Elms, Siberian Elms, and the hybrids. The lone holdout is the Rock Elm... but its time is coming.
I have several very large American Elms, and a few big Slippery Elms in my woodlot that have survived several onslaughts of DED. But each time DED makes another pass it gets more of them... the disease morphs as needed to stay alive. Smaller trees spring up from the larger "resistant" trees, only to be wiped out during the next pass from DED. My woodlot will go three, four, maybe five years without a sign... and then suddenly dozens will die in just a couple years. The cycle repeats itself over and over. Some of the young trees will survive a couple passes, but I have virtually no elms between the 8-10 inch diameter and the 24-30+ inch diameter... they just don't make it long enough to get bigger than 10 inches, and the last of the bigger ones will soon be gone.
The whole mess is a sad state of affairs...
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Well, only time will tell if this stuff is splittable. I'll report back when it's had about three months to dry. Some of the smaller limbs should be ready for testing sometime in April when the bark starts peeling off. I shudder to think that the ends may start showing concentric circles rather than crossed or straight checkups. If that happens, my work is all toast. Such is the risk that you run in this business.
On the other hand, this tree was so old that some of the cross-breeding problems White Spider refers to may have taken place long after this tree was already a sapling.
On the other hand, this tree was so old that some of the cross-breeding problems White Spider refers to may have taken place long after this tree was already a sapling.
1project2many
ArboristSite Guru
Not Chinese Elm. CE will "bleed" a sticky orange-brown sap after being cut. CE bark is exactly as posted by Whitespider. CE wood has darker heartwood after tree reaches 4-6" diameter.
That wood looks very to Siberian Elm.
I've had both types here (just burned some CE last night) and could link to the threads with pictures if the pictures still existed. Maybe I can remember the name of my photobucket account.
That wood looks very to Siberian Elm.
I've had both types here (just burned some CE last night) and could link to the threads with pictures if the pictures still existed. Maybe I can remember the name of my photobucket account.
Ahhhhh.... I love these threads when people agree with my "know-it-all" opinions... sweet friggin' vindication.
But I gotta' warn y'all... keep it up and ya' might just give me a bigger head than I already have
L-O-L
Ya' just gotta' love the internet... it can be so damn much fun... ya' can be whatever ya' want, whenever ya' wanna' be it‼
(Yeah... the whiskey bottle had the top removed some number of hours ago.)
But I gotta' warn y'all... keep it up and ya' might just give me a bigger head than I already have
L-O-LYa' just gotta' love the internet... it can be so damn much fun... ya' can be whatever ya' want, whenever ya' wanna' be it‼
(Yeah... the whiskey bottle had the top removed some number of hours ago.)
Ahhhhh.... I love these threads when people agree with my "know-it-all" opinions... sweet friggin' vindication.
But I gotta' warn y'all... keep it up and ya' might just give me a bigger head than I already have
Ya' just gotta' love the internet... it can be so damn much fun... ya' can be whatever ya' want, whenever ya' wanna' be it‼
(Yeah... the whiskey bottle had the top removed some number of hours ago.)
What ever.
pyankura
ArboristSite Member
I gotcha, I just can't keep too much soft stuff here, no room. The wife, hmmm, ALWAYS COLD! Her and her cat hang by the fire most times....
Let just say I liked your posts right up to the ********.
Hey guys, not to change the subject, but I've had a few PMs on my supports I made to hold the rounds while noodle cutting them into halves or even quarters.
These are really handy and you might be able to make them in your shop. Should I start a separate thread? I might be able to dig up a sketch or drawing with dimensions in addition to a Pic.
These are really handy and you might be able to make them in your shop. Should I start a separate thread? I might be able to dig up a sketch or drawing with dimensions in addition to a Pic.
brewmonster
ArboristSite Operative
Not to be a jerk about it, but I don't see what those beautifully made brackets do that can't be done with a couple of half-rounds.
(1) They weigh less than one-fourth as much.
(2) You can hang them on a pegboard wall.
(3) They can be easily carried in the truck along with your tools.
(4) It's easier to roll the big round up the inclined plane.
(5) Less messy.
(6) Don't have to run around looking for logs in the woods or at the drop site
(7) etc. etc.
But shucks, if you want to remain a Neanderthal, be my guest.
