Chisel grinding and fileing. NOT SQUARE !!

[tramp bushler]

Another trick if you want a fast smooth chain is knock off the back corner of the chain with a grinder or file. If you notice on a used chain this corner will get shiny. That means it's rubbing somewhere. This used to be real popular around here. You're not losing anything you will ever use.

Lots of guys that cut export would do that. I've done it also . But only for cutting export. It Really smooths out the boring . And doesn't give as much of a running start to a tip kick back. With full skip 404 it makes a big difference !!
If anyone is doing much boring clipping the heel is a good thing to do.

 

[Skeans]

Lots of guys that cut export would do that. I've done it also . But only for cutting export. It Really smooths out the boring . And doesn't give as much of a running start to a tip kick back. With full skip 404 it makes a big difference !!

I'll have to try that next time I'm jacking anything.

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[madhatte]

It Really smooths out the boring . And doesn't give as much of a running start to a tip kick back.

Makes sense. That back corner would be most exposed when deep in a bore, otherwise it's mostly trailing behind the chip. Might grind one for kicks, could always use a Swedish candle or two.

 

[tramp bushler]

Ya , and putting in board notches.
When chasing the rot out of the butt cut. Poking a log every 2 feet or less . Trying to get a good log out with as short a long butt as possible. On Native land it was no biggy to leave long butts in the brush. Forest Service land . We couldn't do any long butting. Every time I would to get the pistol butt out . I'de get a ass chewing from the bull buck. When the pulp market was down , there's still untold millions of feet of long butts laying out in thousands of units in southeast and south central AK. Now that we don't have any pulp mills in Alaska , there really isn't anything to do with them. Except put them all in a rock pit and torch them.

 

[tramp bushler]

I think I still have a loop or 2 of semi skip 3/8s hanging in a nail here somewhere with clipped heels.
Their pretty much wore out.

 

[madhatte]

On Native land it was no biggy to leave long butts in the brush. Forest Service land . We couldn't do any long butting.

Heh. I have been known to mark oversize in order to accumulate coarse woody from the longbutts. Before you loggerfolk get up in arms about that ripoff, know that my agency deliberately cripples our growth models in order to make cruises come up short, so we pretty much give away money. I've been fighting this for years to no avail. I've even asked "so what do you WANT the cruise to come out as? I'll find the equation to make that happen". We can only measure so well, after that it's up to the buyer to figure out utilization. We also don't bother to grade for poles, special mill, or anything except sawlogs. I'm pretty sure we're losing a lot of our possible revenue due to half-assed sale administration. We can sure as hell cruise for different products, it's just that the sale admins don't want to market them. Is it just me, or does this sound stupid?

 

[northmanlogging]

Heh. I have been known to mark oversize in order to accumulate coarse woody from the longbutts. Before you loggerfolk get up in arms about that ripoff, know that my agency deliberately cripples our growth models in order to make cruises come up short, so we pretty much give away money. I've been fighting this for years to no avail. I've even asked "so what do you WANT the cruise to come out as? I'll find the equation to make that happen". We can only measure so well, after that it's up to the buyer to figure out utilization. We also don't bother to grade for poles, special mill, or anything except sawlogs. I'm pretty sure we're losing a lot of our possible revenue due to half-assed sale administration. We can sure as hell cruise for different products, it's just that the sale admins don't want to market them. Is it just me, or does this sound stupid?

You could sell on price per x? like the forest disservice does, bid x amount pay x up front then pay per month as the mill slips come. Seems to work fairly well, though the way the FS words it is frightening as all Hel. Then you folks would be getting paid on the volume of timber harvested, rather then on whats been cruised.

As for poles, I'm personally not real impressed with how the pole folks up here do (ahem DID) business, too much of a gamble, they will scale em on the landing, and even mark em standing, and give ya all sorts of positive numbers, but then once they get to the mill, then they really scale em, and start looking for defect, anything that falls out they still pay for, but its at a much lower price then you would get at the regular mill, and taint no refunds yo. Thats the part that gets me out of it, can't afford to send good #1 or SM logs to the pole people only to have them not like the blemish on 2' of one side, and reject what amounts to 2 logs, only to pay me a #4 price, scaled of course from the small end of a 70' stick no less.

 

[Skeans]

Ya , and putting in board notches.
When chasing the rot out of the butt cut. Poking a log every 2 feet or less . Trying to get a good log out with as short a long butt as possible. On Native land it was no biggy to leave long butts in the brush. Forest Service land . We couldn't do any long butting. Every time I would to get the pistol butt out . I'de get a ass chewing from the bull buck. When the pulp market was down , there's still untold millions of feet of long butts laying out in thousands of units in southeast and south central AK. Now that we don't have any pulp mills in Alaska , there really isn't anything to do with them. Except put them all in a rock pit and torch them.

You know I'd rather see that thinning then damn high stumps they suck they tear up equipment.

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[Skeans]

I think I still have a loop or 2 of semi skip 3/8s hanging in a nail here somewhere with clipped heels.
Their pretty much wore out.

Now that I think of it my dad use to clip the heel off on a new chain never asked why either maybe I should or the guys that taught him since they were up in your neighborhood.

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[Skeans]

Heh. I have been known to mark oversize in order to accumulate coarse woody from the longbutts. Before you loggerfolk get up in arms about that ripoff, know that my agency deliberately cripples our growth models in order to make cruises come up short, so we pretty much give away money. I've been fighting this for years to no avail. I've even asked "so what do you WANT the cruise to come out as? I'll find the equation to make that happen". We can only measure so well, after that it's up to the buyer to figure out utilization. We also don't bother to grade for poles, special mill, or anything except sawlogs. I'm pretty sure we're losing a lot of our possible revenue due to half-assed sale administration. We can sure as hell cruise for different products, it's just that the sale admins don't want to market them. Is it just me, or does this sound stupid?

Can I ask why you guys don't thin for an oversize say +32 to 24? For a 15 year rotation?

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[madhatte]

Then you folks would be getting paid on the volume of timber harvested, rather then on whats been cruised.

Sorta, except we get paid based on scale tickets. Mill stuff is totally not our baliwick. Bids are on $/BF and that's that. Once it crosses the scale we're done with it. I think that's the argument the admin types are insistent on washing their hands of. You never know whats really in a log until you unzip it, right?

You know I'd rather see that thinning then damn high stumps they suck they tear up equipment.

Our contracts say 12", I've seen higher and lower. We are pretty much the only active skidder ground in the south sound region so we sorta leave it up to the contractor to make it work. In the end, I'm the one inconvenienced by a high stump in the long run. I have a few stands that I've cruised twice now, and 2 that I've cruised 3 times.

Can I ask why you guys don't thin for an oversize say +32 to 24? For a 15 year rotation?

That's a 9-beer conversation right there.

 

[madhatte]

*to clarify, let's drink them beers, it's a hell of a tale

 

[Skeans]

Sorta, except we get paid based on scale tickets. Mill stuff is totally not our baliwick. Bids are on $/BF and that's that. Once it crosses the scale we're done with it. I think that's the argument the admin types are insistent on washing their hands of. You never know whats really in a log until you unzip it, right?



Our contracts say 12", I've seen higher and lower. We are pretty much the only active skidder ground in the south sound region so we sorta leave it up to the contractor to make it work. In the end, I'm the one inconvenienced by a high stump in the long run. I have a few stands that I've cruised twice now, and 2 that I've cruised 3 times.




That's a 9-beer conversation right there.

Maybe we can talk in the future you'll have to see what we do.

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[Skeans]

*to clarify, let's drink them beers, it's a hell of a tale

Many beers here at the farm and lots of acres to see of a small family operation over 100 years.

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[northmanlogging]

Price per mbf is about all you can hope for. Other then percentage splits but then thats sorta up to the bidder.

Once it gets scaled, then it gets graded, and thats the end of it for me, grade can change the price a whole bunch though.

 

[madhatte]

Grading standing timber vs scaling logs are two very different disciplines. I'm a competent grader but I know exactly squat about scaling.

Yeah, I'mma have to make it down there. Definitely interested in seeing your operations and stealing all the good ideas for use on our forest.

 

[northmanlogging]

Scaling is part measurement, part grading for defect, part voodoo.

There are rules on how your supposed to deduct for each type of defect, either taking from the length or the diameter, as well as overall log grade.

But I'm pretty sure that some of the folks scaling timber are pretty sure I and others like me don't have much of a clue about it, Hence I don't send much wood to them folks that scale poorly, or take excessive amounts of deductions.

I mean losing 1000' off a load from "defect" is a pretty ****** way to do business, especially when I know what them logs looked like when they left here.

Come to think of it the last load I sent to one of them was over 4 months ago now.

 

[tramp bushler]

Ya grade scaling is basically just a form of larceny.

 

[madhatte]

Scaling is part measurement, part grading for defect, part voodoo

Didn't I give you a copy of the Bell & Dilworth orange book awhile back? If not, I will. That book is the rules for how things are done hereabouts. If you know that book, you know most of what I know. Pretty sure the pocket version is available through the usual suspects pretty cheap. Don't fret the revision -- I have several from 1980 to current and have yet to find an important difference.

 

[northmanlogging]

Read it front to back, forgot a good 2/3's of it...

Largely it was focused on the cruising aspect, and there is just so much to do, that one guy on a day trip would get lost.

As for grade, about all I can do is size em up, buck for defect and sway when possible, but still need enough bunk logs to make the trip worth while, so its all a bit of a gamble. But a decent logger should be able to make a crap tree look like marketable logs with a little bit of fuss, its a big reason why i drag the 75' Spencer around.

Marking and bucking without looking at the whole tree, can get you in a world of hurt fast, so i mark as i go for a couple different lengths, then once I've made it all the way to the top or where its broke, then I can make a final decision as to where I really need to buck em. Four feet on the butt log, and another 4' on the middle can often be the difference between firewood and another long log out of the top.