Clearing job questions

[STLfirewood]

I had someone call me to big on a clearing job. It's a very big job for me. I'm having a little trouble coming up with a number. The guy told me in the past they have had bids anywhere from $6k-$60k depending on the foliage. They want all the material removed. They just want the growth above the ground cover taken out. Access is tough. There is a creek at the bottom and there are only a few crossing points. I know it's hard to tell in the pictures but the hill is over 1/2 mile long. How would you guys tackle this.

Thanks Scott

 

[STLfirewood]

More pics

 

[capetrees]

Track skidsteer with a brush-hog out front. Could do the job two days max and reduce it all down to mulch. Question is, price?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEDSTXA8leg&feature=related

 

[pdqdl]

A track skid steer won't handle as steep a slope as a decent ag tractor with the wheels set wide. Additionally, the biggest skid steer can't hope to compare with the delivered horsepower of a common brush hog mower mounted to the rear of an ag tractor.

My A300 bobcat (does not have high flow hydraulics) can mow small area with our 6' brush cutter, but it simply stalls out the hydraulics if you get into heavy brush.

Ideally, you would use a Right-of-Way clearing machine that has the ramped up hydraulics to drive the very specialized brush mulching attachments. These, of course, are very expensive to buy, and they are not cheap to keep running, either.

That hillside looks like it is only 3:1, so a 60hp 4wd tractor with a 6' mower deck would do pretty well there. Drive around the trees that are too big, and just mow the brush.

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I rolled a tracked skid steer down a hill once, so I know what I am talking about. The rubber tired tractors will outperform the track units in all positions except pointing straight downhill. BTW: it is VERY unpleasant to be in one when you roll it, so be careful.

 

[pdqdl]

That looks like pretty rocky terrain in a few places, and you will only get a machine on about 60% of what I could see.

Hand work! Big bad 60cc string trimmers running steel blades and fixed string heads at the same time; slinging .170" thick string. You should expect about 500-1000 sq ft per manhour, at least until your guys figure out how to make it go faster.

With practice, good equipment, and hard work: about 3000 sq.ft/manhour, and you should be able to cut brush up to 2" thick without getting out the chainsaw.

 

[STLfirewood]

It's very rocky because it's blast rock fill. Most of the slope is to steep to use a machine on. They don't want the stuff mulched they want it removed. PDQL how much do think production would go down if they guys had harnesses and rope on them. Some of this is very steep.

Thanks for the replies.

Scott

 

[pdqdl]

That looks like a flood control catch basin.

They are concerned about tree roots upsetting the established slopes, right? You need to sell them on a program of brush control, which will involve an annual treatment with brush killer like Tordon.

Big drawback: they will be concerned about erosion caused by defoliating the slope.

Solution:
1. treat with brush killer in the fall, well before autumn. Brush will die, but nobody will notice it because the leaves fall off this time of year anyway.
2. Cut standing brush down during the winter. It will be easier & cheaper.
3. Early spring seeding, perhaps with bermuda grass and fescue. Both will tolerate a great deal of summer heat, and the bermuda grass is particularly effective at holding erosion. Just plan on broadcasting it with a shoulder mounted cyclone spreader. What comes up will be allowed to self-seed and spread.
4. Spray the brush & weeds each May thereafter, eliminating taller broadleaf weeds and brush.

Once established, no brush to cut, and there will be no mowing needed; at least until some bad luck introduces a stand of Johnson Grass.

 

[pdqdl]

Harness & rope are very impractical. Imagine climbing a tree, then swinging a string trimmer while suspended. Some sort of rope suspension to pull the brush up to the top looks like it might help, since I'll bet you can't get a machine down into the hole to haul it out.

That hillside really doesn't look that steep. The biggest problem is the gabian rock that they lined the slopes with. Rough stuff to walk over.

We do a lot of this kind of work, and you need some employees that are willing to do the work. Ask the customer if they will allow you to do a test strip for free, just to evaluate your production rate. Then pick several areas: the worst, the easiest, and the most common.

Then do the math. Good measurements of the entire area can be done using Google Earth, never leaving your desk.

 

[pdqdl]

This is your location, right?

# 1 GRAVOIS BLUFFS PLAZA DRIVE

It looks like they have really let that get out of control, especially on the 141 highway side. It still looks mowable to me, at least most of it.

Tire ruts on the east side would be objectionable, but that could be mowed with a DR mower and a fair amount of patience. The east side is almost exactly an acre.

 

[STLfirewood]

What you are seeing as growth is Crown Vetch. The side on 141 isn't going to be cut. The side that I am going to cut is on the HWY 30 side. If you see where the waterfall is the job starts there. It goes all the way to the end of the Chevy Dealer. The rock is bigger then Gabien in places. They don't want me to mow the Crown Vetch. They just want the stuff sticking out of the Vetch cut off.

Thanks for your help

Scott

 

[pdqdl]

I had a large contract some years ago maintaining crown vetch hillsides; many at 2:1 slope. Their program involved using a backpack sprayer to hike all the hillsides late every spring to treat emerging weeds and brush, particularly thistles. As you might expect, it was a bunch of work.

If you get in good with this customer, you might suggest a program that switches to a grass instead of the crown vetch. The CV grows well on poor soil, but it establishes very slowly (two year germination time!), and it doesn't compete with weeds and brush. Grasses, in conjunction with broadleaf weed controls, do.

So far, every customer location that I have persuaded to abandon crown vetch and stick to the grasses has been happy with that choice.

Good luck on the bid. That type of project is difficult to bid successfully, since some numbskull usually underbids it to get the job, then cuts corners and looses money in the end.

 

[pdqdl]

By the way: crown vetch tolerates annual mowing very nicely. Mow in Sept-Oct, and you will actually spread the seeds around better than nature. Tire tracks will tend to press some of the seed into the soil. Mowing earlier in the year reduces plant vigor and decreases the amount of seed produced, particularly if done prior to drought stress.

 

[sgreanbeans]

PDQDL, WOW! if ever there was a question on here that was answered to the fullest, that was it! There is no point for any one else to put the 2 cents in after that!
GOOOD STUFF, GOOD STUFF

 

[JCONN]

I agree 100% you have a great wealth of knowledge. I have learned a few things from your post. Good stuff!

 

[imagineero]

I wouldn't put too much time into the quote.
If they've had quotes from 6k~60k how many quotes are we talking here? And they're getting another one to what... have something else to add to conversation at their next dinner party?

I've turned up to bid on jobs before where someone else was already there quoting it, and while waiting a polite distance away and trying to look like I wasn't just waiting round for the other guy to leave, 2 other guys turned up! I asked the home owner how many people he got out to quote and he said "well, we called about a dozen guys, and only 5 have quoted so far....." I left straight away. Fair enough if you want to get 2 or 3 quotes on a job, but a dozen is way too many especially for a small job worth only a few thousand!

More important than your price is communicating with the client and finding out what their issues are. In the past I've won work based mainly on communication and not on price. I find when a client is getting a lot of quotes it's usually one of 3 scenarios; they are incredibly stingy and want the cheapest possible price regardless of the quality of the job or they have no idea what is involved in the job and are baffled by the variations or they are really knowledgeable and looking for something specific but are poor communicators.

If its the first situation then find out straight away and stop wasting your time. These big jobs can look rewarding from the numbers involved but mostly they involve loss and headache if you aren't geared up for them.

If its one of the other two then spending an hour or two going through the finer points of the job at the site with the client often wins it, even if you are a bit more pricey. What the client is looking for in the second and third example above is to have confidence in the person they are giving the job to. If you walk them through it and explain things, or listen to them if they are expert and looking for something specific then they usually will go with you. Clients like this are often reluctant to engage in dialogue but drawing them in isn't that hard. It just needs a little effort.

Shaun

 

[pdqdl]

Thanks for the positive comments, guys. I probably have more experience mowing and maintaining severe hills than I do cutting down trees.

Been doing it since 1985.

One good thing about this kind of work: not too many folks are willing and able to do the work. It's a much smaller market, with an equally small amount of competition. Once you get your foot in the door, your customers tend to remain faithful.

 

[pdqdl]

...
More important than your price is communicating with the client and finding out what their issues are. In the past I've won work based mainly on communication and not on price. I find when a client is getting a lot of quotes it's usually one of 3 scenarios; they are incredibly stingy and want the cheapest possible price regardless of the quality of the job or they have no idea what is involved in the job and are baffled by the variations or they are really knowledgeable and looking for something specific but are poor communicators.

...Shaun

Yep. That is a very accurate assessment of how it works. The scenario in this thread sounds to me like a management that has not allocated any money to maintenance, and now they are forced to confront the looming problem. No money, no real experience at the problem, and they are working off of goals set from higher up the food chain.

 

[STLfirewood]

They don't have any other bids at this point. The 6k-60k is what they have paid in the past depending on how much growth there is. Nothing grows but Crown Vetch on the other hillsides. This is the only hillside that there is over growth on. They just spend the money to cut it every couple of years.

Scott