Climbing Saw Favorites

[SpikedSupra]

Bravo Nick

I really like the way that Nick shares his opinions and thoughts with grace and valor. He keeps his opinions firm but stays respectfully tasteful. I know this is off the thread's subject matter but I felt responsible to commend a well written response such as Nick's. This is how I feel constructive critism should be handled. Offer your opinion and tactfully offer your alternative advice.

My $0.02

 

[rahtreelimbs]

To Nickrosis, Thank You, I can't top your post. Rich.

 

[Kevin]

Now Nick,
Isn`t that being hypocritical?
You don`t have a top handled saw, you apparently think Mike`s idea of a rear handled saw in the tree is better and yet you want a top handled saw for yourself or did I misread your post?

The special-purpose saws from STIHL are specifically designed for jobs on or in trees, such as tree surgery or municipal park maintenance. All models are characterized by their optimized centre of gravity and low weight. They are made even easier to handle by the highly effective anti-vibration system.

This is why we buy them...
All models are characterized by their optimized centre of gravity and low weight

These saws are designed to be used in trees and are no more dangerous than any other chainsaw unless used for some unintended purpose or manner.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I don't fault Nick for still wanting a stihl. Quite frankly, there is, to date, no decent rear handled topping saw. The only one that comes close is Echo's 3450. It has the proper handle configuration, they just forgot to give it any power.

Now on to your quote:

"All models are characterized by their optimized centre of gravity and low weight"

Low weight.
All toping saws have low weight by definition.

Optimized centre of gravity.
So they put the weight in the center of the saw... that's a good idea, right where all the weight is.
The point of my previous post was that you don't want the gravity centered, that's a bad thing. To understand this, answer the question, Why don't ground saws have top handles?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Oh, and this comment is just plain wrong:

"These saws are designed to be used in trees and are no more dangerous than any other chainsaw "

The second part anyway.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I cant see the risk of a climbing saw being any greater if properly operated.

Like anything else in the tree this is a preferance thing, like saddles. Leg harness is far superior to bo'suns, because I like them.

My handsaw preferance is because I am lazy, I don't want to carry the saw around in the tree, and i can wear my Roc helmet without muffs. It has a 3 point chinstrap and my Peltor don't.

Goin to get one of those NZ modles that was field tested by Dunlap, Ulmus, Malus & Betula; Associates. (No Tom I'm not calling you dumb, just playaing around :angel

What were we talkin about?

 

[Kevin]

... and Mike just one other thing while I think of it and that is don`t be reaching with a chainsaw.
If you have to over extend yourself to make a cut you`re too far from it.

 

[DDM]

Mike, My Ground saw MS200 Does have a top handle when I'm Not in a tree with it Or to tired to get a larger saw

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

David,
When using a Q-tip, stop shoving it in when you feel resistance!

John Paul,
Some saws have a higher risk associated with them, that's a fact. Yes, proper use does help reduce that risk, but all saws are not equally safe to operate.
To illustrate the point consider a hot saw. Think about 25 HP spinning a full skip, square ground chain, with the rakers completely removed. Think about pegging the throttle to 18,000 RPM and bouncing the tip of the bar off a log. Scary, huh?

Top handled saws do no give the operator the same leverage to resist kick back, that's a fact.

 

[Kevin]

Top handled saws do no give the operator the same leverage to resist kick back,

I`ll have to see the scientific data on that, you do have it?

Kickback occurs on the top tip of the bar not the bottom.

 

[DDM]

Mike, :Eye:
I noticed a few weeks ago when Running an old Mac Pro model my granfather gave me That that saw Kicked back every 5 to 6 cuts where Ive only had one of my new stihls kick back once that i can remember. I was cutting in the wood pile Cutting logs to length. I guess Im not sure what the difference in the newer saws is but there seems to be alot.

 

[Kevin]

Sharp chains and high rpm reduce kickback.
Dull chains and low rpm increase kickback.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Actually Kevin, kick back occurs when the top half of the tip of the bar comes in contact with something. The top of the bar causes a pushing action, and the bottom, a pulling action. The lower half of the tip is used to attack when doing plunge cuts.
Kickback is a force which quickly pushes the bar of the saw up and back towards the opereator. To test my statements safely, go to home depot with a freind. One of you hold an Echo 3450(rear handled saw) while the other holds the tip of the bar with a gloved hand. Now, suddenly lift on the bar and see how much effort it takes for the one holding the saw. Then simply repeat the test with an Echo 3400(top handled saw).
I asked you to do the test with these specific saws because they are the same except for the handle.
If you do this test, you will no longer need "scientific data".
I don't make this $hit up, I have owened both these saws, as well as Stihl 020t, 019t, Husky 335, and a lot of other topping saws, over the years.
As far as a dull saw kicking, I don't know, I never cut with one.
Low RPM doesn't sound right either, but I'll tell you how it tested tomorrow.

 

[Kevin]

We agree on kickback.

What makes a top handle saw dangerous is people using them with one hand.

 

[Nickrosis]

"you apparently think Mike`s idea of a rear handled saw in the tree is better"

I said Mike had great points, but I didn't say anything for or against handle positions. I don't own a chainsaw, but that's because I can always use the company-issued saws. For this fall, I hope to have my own, though. I'm still new at all this!

Regarding kickback, handles, and saw sizes. To me, a smaller saw has less kickback force than a large saw. Shove a Stihl 009 into a pile of logs, and you'll be able to fairly easily stop the kickback. As the saw gets bigger, you will have increasing difficulty. That's my completely unscientific view.

I thought I made an appropriate comment when I said something to Spike_it, but it turns out that it was completely distasteful and out of place. I'm sorry. In the future, I will strive to not make personal comments that may degrade someone's reputation on this site. Perhaps I haven't been following a new direction this board is taking, but I will get on the bandwagon. I'm sorry Spike_it, you're a good man.

Nicholas Crawford

 

[Nickrosis]

Echo Responds

I received this e-mail today. Personally, I'm impressed with the response, but I wonder why it was included in the first place. I'll let you know when I hear from the HQ in Japan.

Dear Mr Crawford,

thankyou for your concern.

We are in the process of updating our website as the content is now out of date.

I wanted to say thankyou for pointing out about Top handled saws. We are removing today the wording - "such as in bulding and construction." This should never have been included.

Unfortunately we are the distributors for Echo in the UK and Ireland only where the laws regarding the use of top handled saws would seem to be slightly different.

We are allowed to sell to certificated licensed operators only who have to go on very stringent courses in the use of top handled saws.The courses last a few days and can only be done by Government trained people.

I hope this clarifies your concerns and I have taken the liberty of
forwarding your email to The Kioritz Corporation in Japan so they are able to answer your concerns on the ANSI commitee.

Best regards

Mark Osborne
Sales Director

 

[Acer]

Just to keep the thread rolling, this report was written for the HSE in the UK showing safe(r) methods of using top handled saws. Interestingly enough, it does describe some situations where the authors feel that one handed use is acceptable, although I'd have though that everyone should aim to have two hands on the saw whenever you are making a cut. A lot of these techniques may be old hat to you all, as most of our "new" ideas seem to be imported from the states. Anyway, the link is

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_htm/2001/crr01402.htm

 

[Kevin]

Nick,
Many contractors use chainsaws in construction or more like destruction where a wall must be removed from inside a building, rotten floor joist can easily be cut out using a chainsaw or other alterations made.
I have a feeling that this is what they meant.

 

[Drummer]

Having been in the construction biz for 20 years, I've seen (not done) new home construction using chainsaws to cut through plywood sheathing for window and door openings and also to resize large timbers.
RogeR

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

There are special rescue saws with a 45degree down bar and carbide tipped chain for rescue that i think some builders have tried.

i think more power can give greater kickback, as well as a longer bar can. i think book says that you can get kickback from the top or bottom tip corners, top being more dangerous. This could happen in that portion of the bar touching something or getting pinched as the chain races around the curve. Left leg, forehead and left throat injuries i believe are most common for kickbacks. The throat injury is why the olde ones would carry that mirror to put the sanitary pad on, so the could see just where it was gushing from when they were alone, and cap it!! Hopefully not to kiss themselves good-bye! But, i always chain brake when starting, moving, pivoting etc. And i do start rear handled saws with the handle between my thighs or on the ground a la Stihl/ Eric Sorenson nwhen on the ground.

If you have both hands in proper position on the saw; it seems that the reach would be determined by the length of the most outstretched arm and handle placement, assuming same bar lenghts. It seems both of those (arm and handle position) would be about equal.

i agree that a rear handled saw would give more leverage against kickback, as hands are farther apart. One hand becomes the pivot (top) and the farther back the other handle, the more leverage on your side to fight kickback on the opposite end of the pivot. Top Arm should be kept straight.

One handed operation though, i think the balanced, lighter saw; that was made for the job, whose back end keeps the front end up would be safer without a doubt. Though Stihl Phil says that all saws are designed for 2 handed use. This is not just for safety but ergonomics. The weight, vibration is meant to be carried by both hands in all that stuff, so i try to minimize such motions. My understanding from him is that it more than doubles the load on the single arm. i have come to equate it with making sure a biner gate can't open, it seems that with both hands locked on the saw, that my chest carries some of the abuse and not just my arms.

Stihl 020 here, gotta go from Corona to Silky. i think i can command more precise action with the wider speed band of these higher revving chain saws, and eliminating fiber in pre cutting. i can always make it cut slower, so i set myself up for as much speed as i can with the fast saw and eliminating wood, then go at the speed i see fit as i watch for head or backcut movement while cutting.

Oh, and my lil'butt is more likely to command a lil saw totally in these conditions .