Contracts are optional.

[Sunrise Guy]

Finally, the voice of reason.


Basic contract law. Simple stuff. Required knowledge for anybody in any kind of business, especially any service business. But if you'd rather drink a beer and play video games than take the time to actually read something and learn, don't cry when something like this happens as if it's someone else's fault.


There are tons of free info out there. It's your's for the searching.

Yep. While this post is not about trees, it certainly is about a crucial aspect of our business and any other: If you don't understand written agreements, as they may apply to contracts, you need to get your smarts fairly quickly or you will be :censored:ed like the op, here.

CYA is the name of the game with contracts. To blindly sign an agreement without making sure your interests are protected, is an idiot's act. Rest assured that there are lawyers out there who will go over your contract with a fine-tooth comb, should they be hired to sue your :censored:.

Let's say that you agree to prune a tree. When you get aloft, you find that the top side of one of its major, very large, heavy leaders, an area invisible from the ground, on a leader that goes over the ho's house, is almost rotted completely through. You tell the ho about its condition and give him a quote on how much it will be to remove it, as opposed to pruning its branches. You tell the ho that it is very likely that the leader will fail at any time in the near future. The ho says, "Ah, I can't afford to have it removed, right now. Just prune it, like in our contract, and let it be."

What should you do? (Everyone put on your thinking caps.)

 

[treemandan]

Yep. While this post is not about trees, it certainly is about a crucial aspect of our business and any other: If you don't understand written agreements, as they may apply to contracts, you need to get your smarts fairly quickly or you will be :censored:ed like the op, here.

CYA is the name of the game with contracts. To blindly sign an agreement without making sure your interests are protected, is an idiot's act. Rest assured that there are lawyers out there who will go over your contract with a fine-tooth comb, should they be hired to sue your :censored:.

Let's say that you agree to prune a tree. When you get aloft, you find that the top side of one of its major, very large, heavy leaders, an area invisible from the ground, on a leader that goes over the ho's house, is almost rotted completely through. You tell the ho about its condition and give him a quote on how much it will be to remove it, as opposed to pruning its branches. You tell the ho that it is very likely that the leader will fail at any time in the near future. The ho says, "Ah, I can't afford to have it removed, right now. Just prune it, like in our contract, and let it be."

What should you do? (Everyone put on your thinking caps.)

That happens all the time. If it went down like to describe I would put my findings on paper at least.

 

[jefflovstrom]

No signature, no work!
Jeff

Post #19
Jeff

 

[jefflovstrom]

Kinda weird! I thought this is a tree site and I don't care about your wall!
Jeff

Post #37
Jeff

 

[treemandan]

We heard you Jeff, thanks.

 

[treemandan]

Well, Sunrise? How many more beers do I have to suck down before you answer? Maybe you are waiting for more replies?

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Yep. While this post is not about trees, it certainly is about a crucial aspect of our business and any other:

Yep. Trees, stumps, walls, plumbing, concrete work, whatever. Those who don't know the rules of the game will not win very many games, and what they do win will be by dumb luck only.

 

[arbor pro]

That happens all the time. If it went down like to describe I would put my findings on paper at least.

You can't force the HO to do the work he doesn't want to do so your only choice is to put in writing that the HO understands the perils of not removing the rotten leader and still chooses to ignore your advice.

If you haven't started the job yet, you walk away - don't touch a thing. Deciding to proceed now aware of the danger involved now gets you legally tied to the tree should it fail. If you've been working on the tree for a bit before coming upon the rotten leader, you document your findings, make the HO sign the document and continue your work. Leaving mid-job could leave you as liable as just walking away from it so, you might as well do all you can to help the tree and document what is still needed to be done but the HO won't allow you to do it.

This is common enough. 95% of the time, when I stop working and start writing my page-long declaration of problems and page-long waiver of liability, the HO has enough time to think about his stupidity and comes around to my suggestion to do what needs to be done. Very few like the idea of signing something that says, "I realize that by leaving my tree the way it is, I am a %$#*& idot. Further, I realize that my stupidity will likely result in damage happening to my home once the tree fails as was advised to me. I accept my stupidity and I accept all responsibility for damages caused by my stupidity..."

Something to that affect.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

YVery few like the idea of signing something that says, "I realize that by leaving my tree the way it is, I am a %$#*& idot. Further, I realize that my stupidity will likely result in damage happening to my home once the tree fails as was advised to me. I accept my stupidity and I accept all responsibility for damages caused by my stupidity..."

Something to that affect.

Oh, if only legalese were that straightforward!

 

[Sunrise Guy]

You can't force the HO to do the work he doesn't want to do so your only choice is to put in writing that the HO understands the perils of not removing the rotten leader and still chooses to ignore your advice.

If you haven't started the job yet, you walk away - don't touch a thing. Deciding to proceed now aware of the danger involved now gets you legally tied to the tree should it fail. If you've been working on the tree for a bit before coming upon the rotten leader, you document your findings, make the HO sign the document and continue your work. Leaving mid-job could leave you as liable as just walking away from it so, you might as well do all you can to help the tree and document what is still needed to be done but the HO won't allow you to do it.

This is common enough. 95% of the time, when I stop working and start writing my page-long declaration of problems and page-long waiver of liability, the HO has enough time to think about his stupidity and comes around to my suggestion to do what needs to be done. Very few like the idea of signing something that says, "I realize that by leaving my tree the way it is, I am a %$#*& idot. Further, I realize that my stupidity will likely result in damage happening to my home once the tree fails as was advised to me. I accept my stupidity and I accept all responsibility for damages caused by my stupidity..."

Something to that affect.

DING, DING, DING! Right answer. You've been in the biz a while, I would guess.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

Oh, if only legalese were that straightforward!

:censored: legalese! That is exactly why I learned how to write my own contracts very early on. To this day, I read over bull:censored: that various companies want me to sign and I demand that they put it in plain, :censored:ing English! Legalese is a contrived, planned, semi-encoded language that encourages/forces you to hire someone who speaks it (ie. a lawyer). It is true :censored:, and I refuse to deal with it precisely because I see through its bull:censored:.

 

[treeclimber101]

Yeah, I guess if you want to get all " lawsuit" with this tree work bullcrap then I am just gonna go home, get drunk and log onto Arboristsite.com.
But , hey, if you have the means to go after big contracts help yerself. I just work for the commoner and that is tough enough. Most people are very understanding and happy with me and I am thankful for that.

So dan are you not gonna part with that truck?

 

[outofmytree]

Damn you arbor pro you beat me to it.

I have done that very thing where the HO engaged me to remove 1 leader from a Tipuana over his house and once in the canopy I could see that the branch he wanted gone was no problem but the trunk immediately above was fractured from storm damage. The vertical crack was opening and closing as I watched it. Told the HO, got told "just do what I asked you to do". So I climbed down, packed up the truck and went home. Had I pruned that tree and the crown failed afterward guess who the Ministry for Fair Trading would be having for friday afternoon BBQ?

 

[flushcut]

Yeah the india problem hits me all to often to, I think I could write a pretty good booklet on it. But I still look at there jobs and treat it like they are like any client. But so so so often, they are trouble.

I am Indian and I don't work for Indians.:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

I am Indian and I don't work for Indians.:hmm3grin2orange:

Now that raht thar is funny, I doan kere who you are!

:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[flushcut]

It's true I hate working for Indians. I had one guy tell me that he was Indian and he was going to talk me down in price and I said funny so am I so what now? I usually don't have anybody sign for anything less than a grand.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

I gave you a nova for that!

 

[Bigus Termitius]

I'll tell you my version of haggle.

Me: That will be $500.

them: howbout $400

Me: $525

them: What, that's not the way it works!

Me: $550

them: ok, $500

Me: $575

them: but you originally said $500

Me: Price is now $600...take it or leave it.

 

[mckeetree]

I'll tell you my version of haggle.

Me: That will be $500.

them: howbout $400

Me: $525

them: What, that's not the way it works!

Me: $550

them: ok, $500

Me: $575

them: but you originally said $500

Me: Price is now $600...take it or leave it.

That is exactly how I do it. There is not enough money in this deal to queer around with some ass rag that wants to get in a GD auction about the price.

 

[randyg]

I'll tell you my version of haggle.

Me: That will be $500.

them: howbout $400

Me: $525

them: What, that's not the way it works!

Me: $550

them: ok, $500

Me: $575

them: but you originally said $500

Me: Price is now $600...take it or leave it.

HILARIOUS stuff there...you know you don't want the job, so have fun to at least give self a fond memory of lost time. Seems every time I ever let someone talk me down, they are doing it again when it comes time to get paid. Crap like well I helped you drag some brush (got in your way) if you just take down that one last limb up there while you are here anyway (you are my slave till I release you) my wife has the check book (I don't have enough in checking to pay you but I should in a week) how about some of the pay now and the rest later (how about some now and you might forget about the rest) and on and on...
Pretty soon you are so frustrated you don't even care about getting paid anymore, you just want to stick em in the chipper so the nonsense will just stop already?

OH oh, spose that's how some of you feel about me everytime you start reading one of my posts?