Contracts are optional.

[RVALUE]

I'll tell you my version of haggle.

Me: That will be $500.

them: howbout $400

Me: $525

them: What, that's not the way it works!

Me: $550

them: ok, $500

Me: $575

them: but you originally said $500

Me: Price is now $600...take it or leave it.

I've done that several times myself. However, never successfully.

 

[lxt]

You can't force the HO to do the work he doesn't want to do so your only choice is to put in writing that the HO understands the perils of not removing the rotten leader and still chooses to ignore your advice.

If you haven't started the job yet, you walk away - don't touch a thing. Deciding to proceed now aware of the danger involved now gets you legally tied to the tree should it fail. If you've been working on the tree for a bit before coming upon the rotten leader, you document your findings, make the HO sign the document and continue your work. Leaving mid-job could leave you as liable as just walking away from it so, you might as well do all you can to help the tree and document what is still needed to be done but the HO won't allow you to do it.

This is common enough. 95% of the time, when I stop working and start writing my page-long declaration of problems and page-long waiver of liability, the HO has enough time to think about his stupidity and comes around to my suggestion to do what needs to be done. Very few like the idea of signing something that says, "I realize that by leaving my tree the way it is, I am a %$#*& idot. Further, I realize that my stupidity will likely result in damage happening to my home once the tree fails as was advised to me. I accept my stupidity and I accept all responsibility for damages caused by my stupidity..."

Something to that affect.

Exactly, however......if the home owner doesnt want to sign & you were up there, witnessed the problem & did not re-act to safe gaurd property or life you can still be at fault!!!!

the laws fluctuate greatly from state to state & in some instances not so much, when you start a job & the unforeseen rises up which....you will never be able to cover your butt on everything....you are basically jammed (depending on where you live)

this isnt my first rodeo with lowly home owners....BTW...up till now I have never lost.....who knows about this one! My Atty told me he has several cases just like mine, seems like Home owners are learning how to jam contractors more so than worrying about the job being done right!

Oh...jefflovstrom..............who gives a crap what you dont care about, this is about contracts weather tree related or not, dont like it? dont care! you always have something to say thats short & negative, I bet your biz does real good with that kinda attitude, come to Pittsburgh & be that way...you might last 1/2 day before some millright/lieman/fitter or other tradesperson would beat the hell outta ya!

Look.... right, wrong or indifferent we do have to contractually protect ourselves & those who work without are on borrowed time, with the economy not doing so well......many people are doing things in a way to get what they want...wrong or right! mostly wrong!!!! all I can do is what the law says, learn from it & move on!!


LXT......................

 

[gr8scott72]

Oh...jefflovstrom..............who gives a crap what you dont care about, this is about contracts weather tree related or not, dont like it? dont care! you always have something to say thats short & negative, I bet your biz does real good with that kinda attitude, come to Pittsburgh & be that way...you might last 1/2 day before some millright/lieman/fitter or other tradesperson would beat the hell outta ya!

 

[jefflovstrom]

I am starting to think that you do not like me. OMG!- Where did I go wrong?
Jeff 123

 

[outofmytree]

Exactly, however......if the home owner doesnt want to sign & you were up there, witnessed the problem & did not re-act to safe gaurd property or life you can still be at fault!!!!

the laws fluctuate greatly from state to state & in some instances not so much, when you start a job & the unforeseen rises up which....you will never be able to cover your butt on everything....you are basically jammed (depending on where you live)

this isnt my first rodeo with lowly home owners....BTW...up till now I have never lost.....who knows about this one! My Atty told me he has several cases just like mine, seems like Home owners are learning how to jam contractors more so than worrying about the job being done right!

Oh...jefflovstrom..............who gives a crap what you dont care about, this is about contracts weather tree related or not, dont like it? dont care! you always have something to say thats short & negative, I bet your biz does real good with that kinda attitude, come to Pittsburgh & be that way...you might last 1/2 day before some millright/lieman/fitter or other tradesperson would beat the hell outta ya!

Look.... right, wrong or indifferent we do have to contractually protect ourselves & those who work without are on borrowed time, with the economy not doing so well......many people are doing things in a way to get what they want...wrong or right! mostly wrong!!!! all I can do is what the law says, learn from it & move on!!


LXT......................

At the risk of being inflammatory I still don't think you get what this is all about.

When engaged to do a job for gain or profit the law is dramatically different from when you do it for nothing. In the first instance the onus is upon you to do the job 100% right REGARDLESS.

I understand the frustration that comes from trying to do the right thing and still being kicked in the teeth but your description of the retaining wall job shows that you made the wrong choice. I am not questioning whether you THOUGHT you did the right thing, I am using your circumstances to warn others who work for the public. To repeat what I and others have posted earlier, If you cannot complete a job to the standards required then walk away. Failure to do so will result in your being in the wrong, as far as the law is concerned, every time.

The whole idea of consumer protection legislation is to protect the vulnerable from the unscrupulous predators that exist in our industry and in most others. Whether these laws work is a matter of much debate, whether they exist is not.

 

[lxt]

Outtamytree............

I do get the big picture........HOWEVER, not being from the states & being familiar with "the law" is where you are providing false conjecture of the situation!!!! Please re-read my posts & even then you may not get the big picture?

we were 1/2 way into the job...completing it to standards is not the debate! its when the customer "requests" something to be done in a way that no law or other says anything about!!!

you with me? what I/we did technically.......nothing says it cant be done the way the home owners requested, THEY WOULDNT SIGN ANYTHING, AS FAR AS WHAT THE LAW SAYS................it was a no win situation, if someone is gonna sue you...they`re gonna sue you! the law says nothing in favor of the customer in this "given situation" on the contrary...there are many things that favor me, will the arbitration panel see it my way? who knows! time will tell.

100% right..........no such thing!! 100% right to who? right is subject to interpretation of the requested circumstances & to include limits of liability for both parties...& on & on! the part you are missing is not could the job of been done right? or could I/we have walked away? its....

what does the Law say pertaining to this situation? the commonwealth of PA is a little different than that from down under, why would the home owner not allow us to proceed in the "right" regular build manner? what was their intent for not allowing us to do such? How many other contractors have they sued? etc.. etc.. any way this is all speculation untill the Atty does his thing.

Ill keep all posted!



LXT......................

 

[Sunrise Guy]

Outtamytree............

I do get the big picture........HOWEVER, not being from the states & being familiar with "the law" is where you are providing false conjecture of the situation!!!! Please re-read my posts & even then you may not get the big picture?

we were 1/2 way into the job...completing it to standards is not the debate! its when the customer "requests" something to be done in a way that no law or other says anything about!!!

you with me? what I/we did technically.......nothing says it cant be done the way the home owners requested, THEY WOULDNT SIGN ANYTHING, AS FAR AS WHAT THE LAW SAYS................it was a no win situation, if someone is gonna sue you...they`re gonna sue you! the law says nothing in favor of the customer in this "given situation" on the contrary...there are many things that favor me, will the arbitration panel see it my way? who knows! time will tell.

100% right..........no such thing!! 100% right to who? right is subject to interpretation of the requested circumstances & to include limits of liability for both parties...& on & on! the part you are missing is not could the job of been done right? or could I/we have walked away? its....

what does the Law say pertaining to this situation? the commonwealth of PA is a little different than that from down under, why would the home owner not allow us to proceed in the "right" regular build manner? what was their intent for not allowing us to do such? How many other contractors have they sued? etc.. etc.. any way this is all speculation untill the Atty does his thing.

Ill keep all posted!



LXT......................

LXT, I'm not sure if YOU get it, here. There is the issue of "due diligence" and also that of "standard of care." Together, or separately, these appear in the rulings concerning contractors/professionals the world over. To some extent, they are universals.

When you found the 4" pipe, YOU posted earlier that the job could not be done to the manufacturer's specs. This is CRUCIAL to your upcoming arbitration. Why? Because you knew, that if you continued the job, that THE WALL WOULD NOT BE BUILT IN A WAY THAT WAS ACCEPTED AS BEING SAFE AND RELIABLE BY THE MANUFACTURER. You, as the "expert" here, knowingly committed an act, ie. the building of a wall over a subsurface that was not acceptable by the manufacturer, that showed you were not exercising due diligence, as that applied to the safety and well being of the person who hired you. In effect, you were showing by the building of the wall, that you didn't care what happened to your customer. Your standard of care was non-existant, basically. You were, by your act, ie. the building of the wall, saying, "To heck with my contractees. They're wanting me to commit an act that shows I am not exercising due diligence, and one without any standard of care on my behalf as the professional, here, so----I'll just do it to get my money!" Problem is: YOU CAN'T DO THAT AND GET AWAY WITH IT IF THINGS GO THE WAY THEY WERE PRETTY MUCH GOING TO GO AS PREDICTED BY THE PROFESSIONALS INVOLVED WITH THE ACT. Here, the manufacturer of the blocks "told you," as the contractor/professional using their product, that their product must have a suitable subsurface. You knew it didn't, yet went ahead with building the wall, anyway.

If any court in the entire world rules in your favor, I'll be very surprised.

There might be mitigating circumstances, in your case, that may, possibly, get you a more favorable ruling. Let's say that this couple knowingly "****y traps" their homestead with articles that make the completion of a contracted job impossible, if one wants to do it to code/standard. EX: They hire an electrician to do a re-wire of their entire house but knowingly conceal the fact that there are hidden wiring issues that make completing the job to code/standard impossible, and then they sue for damages that give them more money than they need to complete the project to code/standard.

If that pattern, as above, is shown, you might get some sympathy from a judge/jury, but you might not. It'll be pretty hard to prove that your contractees knew about that 4" pipe, unless you can find, and prove, that they had the job done, themselves, and knowingly concealed the same from you.

To tell you the truth, if I was going to build a wall for someone, I would check and recheck its run and probe its future subsurface down to the depth recommended by the manufacturer's specs. I'm positive that any professional would do the same. I'm also sure that any professional contractor who found that 4" pipe, once the project was underway, would let the contractee know that the job could not be completed, would take down whatever was up, would replace all pre-existing structures to the extent possible, would have the contractee sign off on his/her satisfaction with whatever was done to restore the area involved, and then would walk away. The expense for the preceding would be eaten. You live and learn, hopefully.

Good luck with your case. It is almost 99% certain that you will lose, but sometimes you get lucky.

 

[jefflovstrom]

LXT, I think the "Sunrise" just rose!
Jeff

 

[lxt]

LXT, I think the "Sunrise" just rose!
Jeff

Yes, but in texas!!

Sunrise you need to re-read previous posts! the wall as a retaining wall could not be built to Mfg (key terms) Suggested/Recommended specifications

The wall was built to Mfg specs pertaining to Free Standing Walls, how ever it is uncertain/unspecified if the wall could be built the way the home owner requested??????? AGAIN, there is nothing that says the wall (which is less than 26" high) could not be built as requested......sheesh!

I am not saying im gonna get away with anything, Im merely stating that in Pennsylvania when engaged in work, should a contractor mid contract encounter an unforeseeable/unknown beforehand problem....BEWARE, your contract better cover as much as possible & then some, my work auth. was prepared by an Atty specifically for the trades we provide, so how much better could it have been? apparently a little better!

The mitigating circumstances as you have mentioned are many, the home owners had a set of steps( concrete) built prior to the wall build which would have brought awareness to the underground facility.

check/recheck....for a 20" high wall??? first off, even had it been known there was an underlying facility to provide a means of directing water away from the residence, that facility, ie: 4" PVC pipe should have been properly ditched to code & in this instance was not!!! not inclusive of the fact had it been...we would have been able to provide the "retaining wall" as per Mfg specifications....the key here is "retaining wall" ala "freestanding wall" 2 different animals & 2 different build standards.

I built the wall as described within the mfg`s specs, The Manufacturers told me nothing! I didnt approach this for the "money" & "the heck with the contractee attitude" as you have conveyed, I approached it as follows:

1- build to suit/ an actual term used in the commonwealth to describe a home owners request......as long as its up to code! in this event no code applies! So, as a universal/worldwide practice you build as per requested & within the technical bulletins/guidelines as described!!!
2- to walk away would anger them regardless as to how the jobsite would have been left & safety would have been an issue!! if they`re gonna sue they`re gonna sue
3- did you understand that they would not sign any additional agreement holding me harmless....ie. satisfactory sign off or other?
4- probe its run.....thats what PA one call is for!! I was given the clear....however this was a PVC pipe with no metal/electronic sensory plates installed! & was not to code on depth in the first place! This is how a professional would do it, Im sure!


My posting of this event is not for arguement sake, I did offer to go back & re do the wall, however........I stated lets do it the way I wanted to in the first place, the home owners care is not for the wall rebuild or other...they want the money!

There are numerous cicrumstances in this situation, I am not trying to get away scott free.....but I dont feel I should be crucified either, I am just letting all know: no matter how professionally written your contracts are, how well you know the customer, how much time, effort & hard work you put in to try & do things......some lowly nutpump will find a way to jam you!




LXT..................

 

[Sunrise Guy]

Yes, but in texas!!

Sunrise you need to re-read previous posts! the wall as a retaining wall could not be built to Mfg (key terms) Suggested/Recommended specifications

The wall was built to Mfg specs pertaining to Free Standing Walls, how ever it is uncertain/unspecified if the wall could be built the way the home owner requested??????? AGAIN, there is nothing that says the wall (which is less than 26" high) could not be built as requested......sheesh!

I am not saying im gonna get away with anything, Im merely stating that in Pennsylvania when engaged in work, should a contractor mid contract encounter an unforeseeable/unknown beforehand problem....BEWARE, your contract better cover as much as possible & then some, my work auth. was prepared by an Atty specifically for the trades we provide, so how much better could it have been? apparently a little better!

The mitigating circumstances as you have mentioned are many, the home owners had a set of steps( concrete) built prior to the wall build which would have brought awareness to the underground facility.

check/recheck....for a 20" high wall??? first off, even had it been known there was an underlying facility to provide a means of directing water away from the residence, that facility, ie: 4" PVC pipe should have been properly ditched to code & in this instance was not!!! not inclusive of the fact had it been...we would have been able to provide the "retaining wall" as per Mfg specifications....the key here is "retaining wall" ala "freestanding wall" 2 different animals & 2 different build standards.

I built the wall as described within the mfg`s specs, The Manufacturers told me nothing! I didnt approach this for the "money" & "the heck with the contractee attitude" as you have conveyed, I approached it as follows:

1- build to suit/ an actual term used in the commonwealth to describe a home owners request......as long as its up to code! in this event no code applies! So, as a universal/worldwide practice you build as per requested & within the technical bulletins/guidelines as described!!!
2- to walk away would anger them regardless as to how the jobsite would have been left & safety would have been an issue!! if they`re gonna sue they`re gonna sue
3- did you understand that they would not sign any additional agreement holding me harmless....ie. satisfactory sign off or other?
4- probe its run.....thats what PA one call is for!! I was given the clear....however this was a PVC pipe with no metal/electronic sensory plates installed! & was not to code on depth in the first place! This is how a professional would do it, Im sure!


My posting of this event is not for arguement sake, I did offer to go back & re do the wall, however........I stated lets do it the way I wanted to in the first place, the home owners care is not for the wall rebuild or other...they want the money!

There are numerous cicrumstances in this situation, I am not trying to get away scott free.....but I dont feel I should be crucified either, I am just letting all know: no matter how professionally written your contracts are, how well you know the customer, how much time, effort & hard work you put in to try & do things......some lowly nutpump will find a way to jam you!




LXT..................

LXT, I kind of "know you" from your past posts. As such, I know that you see yourself as hardly ever wrong. That's cool, man. Whatever gets you through your life, right? I'm not going to point-for-point you, here, as this has gotten real old, real quick. You handled this wrong, and that's that. If you had an attorney draw up your contract, get yourself another attorney. Case closed!

 

[mckeetree]

lxt, i kind of "know you" from your past posts.

lmao.

 

[treeclimber101]

I'll tell you my version of haggle.

Me: That will be $500.

them: howbout $400

Me: $525

them: What, that's not the way it works!

Me: $550

them: ok, $500

Me: $575

them: but you originally said $500

Me: Price is now $600...take it or leave it.

Thats frigin hilarious your completely full of #### but a great story teller none the less , I have never even tried that trick but would love the laugh .

 

[mckeetree]

Thats frigin hilarious your completely full of #### but a great story teller none the less , I have never even tried that trick but would love the laugh .

He may actually be doing that because I sure as hell have done it before and with success. More than once.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Oh yeah! Me too! (not) ,
Jeff

 

[lxt]

Sunrise,

Im not saying im not wrong or that im not right! I just posted this predicament so that others could learn from what was done, get a new Atty? you`re funny......cause some kangaroo court magistrate made a judgement without any reason, I have the transcript!! & she didnt even give reason for her decision...why? cause her ruling could not be justified by anything the law said!

was I wrong?.......Yes, in the fact that I didnt entail this particular unforeseen event in my contract(s) & that I complied with the request of the home owner................I didnt go there with intent, malice or negligence to build a substandard wall, I went there to build their wall & make them happy & they admitted I did such!! they also admitted hitting the wall with their car on several occasions, So Now what?

all I can do is appeal & wait, if im found to be 100% wrong then Ill pay the judgement....But I think, the outcome will be somewhat different! I surely dont think Ill be paying $4500....but who knows?





LXT.........................

 

[jefflovstrom]

Ah, gosh man, Why didn't you just speak-up and tell us you need a hug? ......hey.. where is the little "huggy" guy?
Jeff

 

[outofmytree]

LXT, I'm not sure if YOU get it, here. There is the issue of "due diligence" and also that of "standard of care." Together, or separately, these appear in the rulings concerning contractors/professionals the world over. To some extent, they are universals.

When you found the 4" pipe, YOU posted earlier that the job could not be done to the manufacturer's specs. This is CRUCIAL to your upcoming arbitration. Why? Because you knew, that if you continued the job, that THE WALL WOULD NOT BE BUILT IN A WAY THAT WAS ACCEPTED AS BEING SAFE AND RELIABLE BY THE MANUFACTURER. You, as the "expert" here, knowingly committed an act, ie. the building of a wall over a subsurface that was not acceptable by the manufacturer, that showed you were not exercising due diligence, as that applied to the safety and well being of the person who hired you. In effect, you were showing by the building of the wall, that you didn't care what happened to your customer. Your standard of care was non-existant, basically. You were, by your act, ie. the building of the wall, saying, "To heck with my contractees. They're wanting me to commit an act that shows I am not exercising due diligence, and one without any standard of care on my behalf as the professional, here, so----I'll just do it to get my money!" Problem is: YOU CAN'T DO THAT AND GET AWAY WITH IT IF THINGS GO THE WAY THEY WERE PRETTY MUCH GOING TO GO AS PREDICTED BY THE PROFESSIONALS INVOLVED WITH THE ACT. Here, the manufacturer of the blocks "told you," as the contractor/professional using their product, that their product must have a suitable subsurface. You knew it didn't, yet went ahead with building the wall, anyway.

If any court in the entire world rules in your favor, I'll be very surprised.

There might be mitigating circumstances, in your case, that may, possibly, get you a more favorable ruling. Let's say that this couple knowingly "****y traps" their homestead with articles that make the completion of a contracted job impossible, if one wants to do it to code/standard. EX: They hire an electrician to do a re-wire of their entire house but knowingly conceal the fact that there are hidden wiring issues that make completing the job to code/standard impossible, and then they sue for damages that give them more money than they need to complete the project to code/standard.

If that pattern, as above, is shown, you might get some sympathy from a judge/jury, but you might not. It'll be pretty hard to prove that your contractees knew about that 4" pipe, unless you can find, and prove, that they had the job done, themselves, and knowingly concealed the same from you.

To tell you the truth, if I was going to build a wall for someone, I would check and recheck its run and probe its future subsurface down to the depth recommended by the manufacturer's specs. I'm positive that any professional would do the same. I'm also sure that any professional contractor who found that 4" pipe, once the project was underway, would let the contractee know that the job could not be completed, would take down whatever was up, would replace all pre-existing structures to the extent possible, would have the contractee sign off on his/her satisfaction with whatever was done to restore the area involved, and then would walk away. The expense for the preceding would be eaten. You live and learn, hopefully.

Good luck with your case. It is almost 99% certain that you will lose, but sometimes you get lucky.

Sunrise this was precisely what I meant.

LXT you have used the same "you don't live here so you don't know squat" argument in the past with equal lack of impact.

To the reader. The point here is still the same as it was from post 1. If you cannot complete a job properly due to something unforseen at the start, leave it alone. Of course you should leave the site as safe as possible but as LXT is going to discover, when you do work for gain or profit the onus is upon you to do it right or not do it at all.

And thats about it for this thread. :deadhorse:

 

[mckeetree]

Oh yeah! Me too! (not) ,
Jeff

What? They have you running scared or what?

 

[lxt]

Sunrise this was precisely what I meant.

LXT you have used the same "you don't live here so you don't know squat" argument in the past with equal lack of impact.

To the reader. The point here is still the same as it was from post 1. If you cannot complete a job properly due to something unforseen at the start, leave it alone. Of course you should leave the site as safe as possible but as LXT is going to discover, when you do work for gain or profit the onus is upon you to do it right or not do it at all.

And thats about it for this thread. :deadhorse:

Yes i use the "you dont live here" why? cause you dont! & regardless of sunrise or your speculative thoughts...the impact (as you say) is different than what you have knowledge of!

your point to the reader is a misinterpreted (by you) folley of "think I knowitall arrogance"! It really is no wonder why many members here move on, a person posts a topic to discuss & bring alert to a certain situation & all of a sudden we have a group of Ben Matlocks!

Do some of you notice its the same group of penile implants that jump on a thread for the purpose of nothing other than misleading readers, some of the previous posts dont touch on the whole sum of events, they just say.... "LXT..will learn", "LXT...you shouldnt have" & so on......

thank god offmyrocker....I mean...Outofmytree felt the need to say "thats about it for this thread" hopefully thats it for his input!

AGAIN, Ill post the outcome following the appeal.


LXT....................

 

[treemandan]

So dan are you not gonna part with that truck?

Ok, how much?