Crane tip-over.

[jomoco]

First off, I may have been doing tree work for about as long as you, but have little experience with big cranes. I've never used a jib, and have always thought I didn't want to.

But I defer to Hoister's knowledge. I believe he's made some posts that explain why some cranes can handle more with the jib on, and the main boom not fully extended. You do know that the lattice frame work is lighter.

On that same vein, there was a crane operator here would used his (180 foot) lattice boom crane for backyard conifer removals, brush and all, often in one piece. A lattice boom's chart is totally different than a hydraulic, as it is so much lighter.

I know you're a pro RB.

It's just that from my perspective everything about this incident is highly questionable. From the cut itself, to the jib being used on lower trunk wood, to the bulk of the CW's being missing on a 175 ton crane.

It seems to me sheer expedience and failure to follow proper procedures in their sequence could have gotten someone killed here, particularly the climber.

jomoco

 

[ropensaddle]

Nope.. The pool is close to the house as well, woulda meant a sharp 90 degree turn to carry the brush out......again, narrow gates. The house would have been all scratched up.

It sure is scratched up I will give ya that lol

 

[ropensaddle]

Ok so you guys sold me the crane was a great asset for the job I have done several like it without a crane but was long hard work ended up splitting the wood and hand carrying. It however was not disastrous. I suppose if they were paying for the crane, here forget it not going to sell it, I would use the service but screw the lumber I am going to make dern sure the crane is not coming my way.

 

[treeclimber101]

Let's not forget that lifting over ANY type of dwelling is frowned upon in all other types of crane work except tree removal operations so don't be surprised when OSHA changes the ANSI standard and says that you need a clear path or no pic...

 

[treeclimber101]

Ok so you guys sold me the crane was a great asset for the job I have done several like it without a crane but was long hard work ended up splitting the wood and hand carrying. It however was not disastrous. I suppose if they were paying for the crane, here forget it not going to sell it, I would use the service but screw the lumber I am going to make dern sure the crane is not coming my way.

I like to keep the money moving through me and my guys so crane work is only a option to me when there are no other options , for the $2,000 beans I'lll stay for another half a day moving some wood and fixing some ruts..

 

[ropensaddle]

Let's not forget that lifting over ANY type of dwelling is frowned upon in all other types of crane work except tree removal operations so don't be surprised when OSHA changes the ANSI standard and says that you need a clear path or no pic...

Lol lets doze the house cut the tree then build a new house, ya needed one anyway

 

[jomoco]

I dunno. They were 90-100 feet away. And the jib, which looks super strong, looks longer than the boom sections. So, had they had the jib off, the boom angle would likely have been even worse....Ouch.

If you look at the last cut before the failed one, you can see a mismatch cut, and on the wrong side. (Too much lean on that piece for a mismatch cut as well) The pick that failed should have been made with one cut from the back (lean) side, while the operator slowly and gently brought the pick to vertical, which would have been a few feet closer to the centerpin as well. Then, the climber could cut off the remaining sliver. Done right, zero dynamic loading. Also, both cutter and operator should have known the wood weight within 10%. Maybe they did, but the improper cut caused the butt to simply fall off. Game over!

If that crane was a 175, he had well over 140 feet of main boom.

jomoco

 

[treeclimber101]

Lol lets doze the house cut the tree then build a new house, ya needed one anyway

Hey it only takes one accident to kill a homeowner or god forbid a child for the whole thing to come to a screaching hault, when I worked on Childrens hospital the crane had to rotate about 320 degrees instead of about 40 degrees because there were three occupied floors under the short route and that added minutes not seconds to every pic..

 

[Hoister]

Treeclimber ..Rb is referring to a conventional crane ..
A luffing crane is often referred to the tower cranes with a conventional boom in it ..that "luff's " up and down as any other crane would boom up or down ..

a luffing jib is a lattice boom structure that rigged to the end of either a hydraulic or a conventional ..

The conventional crane is by any standard .the bench presser of the industry ..its sports a mean chart ..In comparison ..a 300T conventional crane ..is nearly equaled by a 450T hydraulic ..

 

[ropensaddle]

Hey it only takes one accident to kill a homeowner or god forbid a child for the whole thing to come to a screaching hault, when I worked on Childrens hospital the crane had to rotate about 320 degrees instead of about 40 degrees because there were three occupied floors under the short route and that added minutes not seconds to every pic..

Tell you what you may think this is silly but I have asked homeowners to vacate for cuts before just because if something went wrong they would be safe. I always get a weird reaction and I assure them it is going to be ok just want to be extra safe here.

 

[Hoister]

If that crane was a 175, he had well over 140 feet of main boom.

jomoco

If you looked at the chart you would see she has 161 of main boom ..and its not worth a boot in the but when reaching ..
Its already been said she was configured with 131main with 33 jib .. that's 164feet..and the best config for reaching .

 

[Hoister]

Tell you what you may think this is silly but I have asked homeowners to vacate for cuts before just because if something went wrong they would be safe. I always get a weird reaction and I assure them it is going to be ok just want to be extra safe here.

Its actually the law ..as far as the operator is concerned ..he cant make a move until all souls are clear ..only the people involved with the lift can be there ..and they better have a purpose ..like tag lines or running the saw ..

 

[treeclimber101]

Treeclimber ..Rb is referring to a conventional crane ..
A luffing crane is often referred to the tower cranes with a conventional boom in it ..that "luff's " up and down as any other crane would boom up or down ..

a luffing jib is a lattice boom structure that rigged to the end of either a hydraulic or a conventional ..

The conventional crane is by any standard .the bench presser of the industry ..its sports a mean chart ..In comparison ..a 300T conventional crane ..is nearly equaled by a 450T hydraulic ..

Yes sir you are correct I was a Ironworker for a nice stint and worked with all types ..

 

[rbtree]

If you looked at the chart you would see she has 161 of main boom ..and its not worth a boot in the but when reaching ..
Its already been said she was configured with 131main with 33 jib .. that's 164feet..and the best config for reaching .

Thanks for clarifying that. Don't mind Jomoco, while he is very experienced and knowledgable, he's not known for understating things, or running away from an argument.....

I'm considering passing on bidding on a massive black cottonwood, as I think it would be hard to do it in a day. Involves parking a 100 ton crane in the street, with only room for cars, not buses to pass, without sucking in the outriggers (That's a pain.) If done Dec 27-28 (no school buses), We could do it without double or 1.5 time for crane and flaggers. But I'd still bid close to $15,000!!

Another co thinks they can do it in a day. Assume 10 hours of crane time with 1 hr travel each way. Can a crane that carries it's own c/w's set up on a nearly level road in 30 minutes? Seems a bit fast. That would still be 3 hours out of 10 with no work being done. The tree is at least 65" dbh, 150 feet tall. Not a lot of room to lay down brush or wood. At least 20 picks.....Radius at least 70 feet. With full counterweights, the chart looks adequate. But I'd like to be able to pick 20 foot trunk wood, in order to sell those 3 logs to offset trucking costs.... They'd weigh 7000-10000 lb each.

 

[treevet]

well) The pick that failed should have been made with one cut from the back (lean) side, while the operator slowly and gently brought the pick to vertical, which would have been a few feet closer to the centerpin as well. Then, the climber could cut off the remaining sliver. Done right, zero dynamic loading. Also, both cutter and operator should have known the wood weight within 10%. Maybe they did, but the improper cut caused the butt to simply fall off. Game over!

I respectfully completely disagree with this. In order to make the pick with your scenario you have to TIP the piece and you have unpredictable holding wood and you have the blade buried waaaay into the piece likely getting stuck from side pressure. This could even be how the accident occurred sort of. (see the cut Jomoco made in his zoo vid where he had to keep going back in and the damn thing kept never coming off)

As I have said before...

I would double choke the piece with one choke on the boom side and one choke on the finishing cut side.

I would over tension the finishing cut side by having the sheave moved with a communication with the op on an intercom (checked by feeling tension in the non choked part of the cables of the chokers).

I would cut half way through on the crane side and then go into the opposite side with my finishing cut, first taking time by scoring the trunk on both sides as a guide so a perfectly MATCHING finishing cut can be attained.

After getting most of the way into the finishing cut and getting fairly near to the initial face cut.....I am gonna pull the saw out and put 3 wedges, (I usually use 3 dead twigs that just fit) .....one in the middle, one on either side of the middle in a little.

Then I am gonna run the cut right into the initial cut and with a little tension, just prior to the two cuts meeting, presto, straight up goes the piece....

....no tilt, little or no holding wood, no kerf, no saw pinch, no grabbing the saw outta your hands, no swing, no negs at all. If so desired the cutter could even exit the scene when the two cuts are almost touching (go to the ground as in this pick or....if in an aerial...just move away and wave bye bye.

This IS the RIGHT cut to be made.

 

[jomoco]

Golly TV, for a vet you sure misinterpreted what was happening during my combo brush and trunkwood pick at the SD Zoo!

Awkward dogleg picks either have to be rigged with multiple chokers to act right, or they can be taken with a single choker and allowed to orient themselves onto the choker as it hinges over, as was the case in the pick you refer to. That pick was not being stubborn at all, it did exactly what I wanted it to, and once it was oriented to the choker, I severed the hinge completely, dropped down, and signalled spool up for a smooth clean pick of an extremely awkward large dogleg pick.

Had it been a vertical trunk pick, the cutting technique would have been different, but still utilised only a single steel choker.

jomoco

 

[treevet]

Golly TV, for a vet you sure misinterpreted what was happening during my combo brush and trunkwood pick at the SD Zoo!

Awkward dogleg picks either have to be rigged with multiple chokers to act right, or they can be taken with a single choker and allowed to orient themselves onto the choker as it hinges over, as was the case in the pick you refer to. That pick was not being stubborn at all, it did exactly what I wanted it to, and once it was oriented to the choker, I severed the hinge completely, dropped down, and signalled spool up for a smooth clean pick of an extremely awkward large dogleg pick.

Had it been a vertical trunk pick, the cutting technique would have been different, but still utilised only a single steel choker.

jomoco

Where's the worries Jomo? I like those "dogleg" picks. Same cut I described and it is gone. No going back and back and finessing while the cabeza is in proximity. Just tell the op when it detaches get it the hell outta here.

The worries can be getting the proverbial "facial" as it is hard to figure just how much that damn foliage weighs at times and the butt can jump up in the air..

So whatta you do? You keep trying to choke higher or cut lower to get the piece bottom heavy and eventually you have to worry about...

Can the choked section carry all that weight
Can the crane carry all that weight.

If it has the potential to flip I want to get my ugly face out of there as soon as poss. and the quicker cut suits me. I have even taken to butt hitching the piece until my face is safe. Then release it. Who cares if it flips then?

In your scenario if it is gonna flip up with the butt you are gonna have to stay with that cut until the very end and it STILL may kick up.

With your cut you expose yourself to barberchair as well.

 

[Hoister]

Yes sir you are correct I was a Ironworker for a nice stint and worked with all types ..

Sweet ..
Erection? or industrial?

Mohawk and Iroquois showed me the ways of pouring steel ..great guys

Iron worker's are usally the finest rigger's on site ..and know which way a crane goes ..

 

[jomoco]

Where's the worries Jomo? I like those "dogleg" picks. Same cut I described and it is gone. No going back and back and finessing while the cabeza is in proximity. Just tell the op when it detaches get it the hell outta here.

The worries can be getting the proverbial "facial" as it is hard to figure just how much that damn foliage weighs at times and the butt can jump up in the air..

So whatta you do? You keep trying to choke higher or cut lower to get the piece bottom heavy and eventually you have to worry about...

Can the choked section carry all that weight
Can the crane carry all that weight.

If it has the potential to flip I want to get my ugly face out of there as soon as poss. and the quicker cut suits me. I have even taken to butt hitching the piece until my face is safe. Then release it. Who cares if it flips then?

In your scenario if it is gonna flip up with the butt you are gonna have to stay with that cut until the very end and it STILL may kick up.

With your cut you expose yourself to barberchair as well.

You sorta sound scared and green TV!

Think about the dogleg in an old handcrank arborist drill for a second and think calm confident thoughts about gravity spinning it at the choke point relative to the cut.

You sound like a scared girl who's seen a mouse!

jomoco:greenchainsaw:

 

[ROOTSXROCKS]

could have been worse