Crossing the line!

[John Stewart]

Hey
Got myself into some hot water on Friday and I could be looking at a civil lawsuit.
Pruned several limbs off of my client's neighbors Green Ash tree. Property line cut would have left a 4-6 ft stub so I swung over did a proper collar cut and cleaned up the mess
The neighbor is livid and wants to charge me and has called three other arborist in the area. They have all said I was in the wrong and should be charged! (Nice guys I wish they would say that to my face) Proper aboriculture procedures do not seem to matter with these hacks!
I have done this in the past and will do again no matter what the outcome of this is! Just wondering on your thoughts?
John

 

[MasterBlaster]

Freaking idiots.

I've had to stub before for the very same reason. If I have the chance to talk to the other property owner, I can usually get em to let me make a proper cut. But sometimes their not home, and I have to stub away.

I can't believe a CA is telling them you shoulda left a stub.

 

[John Stewart]

Hey
Thought I should add a little more sugar to this
My client had permission to prune and they knew I was coming but when it changed her veiw she reneged on the permission
The issue is not about my pruning or trespassing
Really it is that she now can see my clients house!
I told her that even if I had stubbed she still would see her neighbors
This is not being heard and now it is all my fault and I am a convict and know nothing about trees!
Oh yeah and if I dont plant enough replacement trees at my cost to block her veiw she will charge and sue me
She has told me this on four occasions this weekend
I am almost at my witts end with her and my :angel: politeness is about to end
I had better block her phone number or I really might be a convict!!!!
Later
John

 

[hobby climber]

You did what was best for the tree and thats what counts. Thats like two people owning a car, one wants a tune up and the other doesn't. You can't do half a tune up and expect it to work ... can you? If you end up going to court, don't worry. You have what is called "colour of right" ... = you did what you believed was the right thing to do for that tree. Kinda like helping out a person in need of medical attention and you have no medical training. It sounds to me like that neighbor,(Jack A$$) may be trying to see if he can get some money out of you. This sort of stuff goes on all the time so don't worry about it. Just arm yourself with the written information to educate the courts about what an Arborist IS and DOES. May want to get a hold of someone from "ARBORMASTERS" and see if someone there would be interested in becoming an "Expet Witness" for you if this thing gets out of hand. If you have to go to court over this, set up an appointment with the crown attorneys office before your court date and educate him/her about trees. --- Maybe next time you may want to concider talking to the neighbor and explain to them what is best for the tree. If they still don't want anything done ... go back to the guy who called you and have him deal with his jerk neighbor. Don't get cought in the middle, sometimes its not worth it. Good luck to you.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Breaking laws ain't cool

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
I can't believe a CA is telling them you shoulda left a stub.

Maybe the so-called arborists are not certified, but it makes little difference.

Sounds like the neighbor may be hot about not 1 but 2 things:

1. Removing major limbs, making their tree less healthy and safe.

2. Trespassing to make collar cuts.
If you entered their tree in order to clear limbs out of your customer's airspace, that is also trespassing.

Much case law in the US adds up to: you have a right to do anything in your air space, UNLESS it harms the property of another. When you work on one person's branches, you cannot compromise the health of another person's tree.

A case just settled here in NC for about $10k. Woman's big oak overhung neighbor's garage. She gave ok for neighbor to hire cert pros to prune for clearance. Neighbors not satisfied, hired noncert "arbo" #2 who took off a whole lot. She sued, and threw a $5k offer back in their face in mediation.

It settled on the way to court, as usual. $10k is my ballpark guess; I know it was a lot more than 5. It seems like you can be busted for trespassing, and sued if they make a case that you damaged the tree. Suggestions?

1. Check local laws and ordinances, recent case history, etc.

2. If you took off more than 25% of tree and/or caused serious imbalance, start rehearsing your justifications to extablish your "color of right". Hint: they need to be more than "that's what I was paid to do."

3. Don't assume property rights are absolute; they are not. And next time you are hired to prune a shared tree, take the time to talk to the other owner about it. Wouldn't you want a contractor to do the same with you?? Do unto others, and all that.

Reneging permission before the cutting is done is fair and should have been respected. Demanding replacements is fair; it's called "Cost of Cure" and it's used all the time here.

 

[Dadatwins]

Originally posted by John Stewart

She has told me this on four occasions this weekend

That is when ear suppressors and loud chainsaws are handy, let em' yell all they want and can not hear a thing.

I had better block her phone number or I really might be a convict!!!!

If you have asked her to stop calling and it continues threaten to counter sue for harassment and loss of business, that will calm her down.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by hobby climber
Don't get cought in the middle, sometimes its not worth it.

It's never worth it when two neighbors hate each other. I once had to come down outta my bucket because my outrigger (NOT the truck) was on the neighbors property. I moved my truck over three feet and got back to it.

Some people have nothing better to do.

 

[John Stewart]

Know Your Facts!

Hey
Now Mr.Meilleur that kind of sounds like your pokin at me.
As a consulting arborist you must know all the facts before you speak or write !
Address these issues I will
The limbs I removed were 2-3 inch limbs and were not major structural limbs in this tree and would total about 5% of the canopy
In Ontario it is not trespassing unless you were told to stay off or it was posted neither of these issues happened in fact I had permission
The irate lady during one of our lovely discussions stated that she had given my clients permission
With that said you are right I should have double checked on this right
I keep feeling like I have to justify my actions and just for general knowledge I am certified with both the ISA and our goverment and I only practice what is right for the tree ALLWAYS!!!!!
That is what got me her in the first place
John

 

[MasterBlaster]

You go, John!

 

[Husky372]

do you guys read what someone writes or just through out these acusations. guy and treeco he said the next door neighbor gave permission then reneged after the fact becuase she could she neighbors house. shes just trying too get free trees. good luck on this john.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Facts are good

"2-3 inch limbs and were not major structural limbs in this tree and would total about 5% of the canopy"

Hey, poking's how you find out things, no harm meant. Consider yourself mostly unpoked.
Well then, if those little things blocked her view of the house, then perhaps installing some birdhouses in strategic locations may solve the problem. Your client buys em, you put em up maybe?

Even if you only took out 5%, if they were in a strategic sightline for the lady they had significant value. Hindsight--Would reducing those branches instead of removing them have given your client enough clearance--I'm assuming that was the goal-- and preserved her privacy, and been more right for the tree? Sure they may have looked bad until they grew back, but longterm better not to have a hole in the crown? Whoops, there I go poking again...

"If she hires Guy your butt is in a sling." Travel time would get pricey , and anyway this case should never get to the stage of legalities. After she cools down you and your client should be able to cure her loss without great cost.

 

[John Stewart]

Hey
No this was not a view issue for my client
The limbs were hanging over the hedge and were causing die back due to lack of sunlight. I was positive that my client was telling the truth as it has been a long term relationship with this same client and never a issue. Also like I stated the owner of the tree confirmed that she gave the OK during one of our discussions.
As far as running into consulting arborist such as Guy, I welcome it because sooner or later we have to stand up for what is right for the trees we work on!
Yes this does include removals which I strongly advocate in the right situation
Also the last time I checked consulting arborist were not lawyers who know trespassing laws and judical procedure!
It also depends on your defination of a victory, mine is if the aboriculture industry is improved and not whether my pride or wallet gets dinged
Take Care
John

 

[John Stewart]

Hey Guy

Sorry I was writing a reply before I saw your post
I was mostly joking about your pokin
I do believe we need to do what is right and I hope these issues will pan out
No harm in pokin either that is why we spend time hackin stuff out on this site
Take Care
John

 

[murphy4trees]

Seems to me that your client owns the airspace and you could legally remove limbs to the property line without permission form the neighbor... So the only question is what was the value/cost of remaining stubs... Would they have regrown into privacy providing limbs...

And from a practical point of view, I'd agree with Rocky... let it go 'til you get the papers... And maybe you could find a way to make peace..

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by John Stewart
The limbs were hanging over the hedge and were causing die back due to lack of sunlight.

Your client wanted clearance, like I guessed, right. Going off track here maybe, but the hedge vs. tree conflict is a tough one to solve. Often neither does well. My gripe about hedges is they are so often sheared below eye level, so they have no screen value. Then you have to wonder what the heck good it is.

If it's a shade-intolerant species planted under a heavy shader like an ash, then it's likely that this pruning job will not solve the problem longterm. Her ash, his hedge, they both want to keep what they have. The plants are in conflict so the people are too. Bummer. I'm just looking for solutions and reducing not aggravating conflict.

"sooner or later we have to stand up for what is right for the trees we work on!" Right you are, john, but how is it right for the ash to cut it back to give a hedge temporary sun? What will you do later as the ash spreads and shades more? Eventually it sounds like the hedge is a replacement opportunity, right? Not what your client wants to hear but unless EAB moves in that may be it.

 

[John Stewart]

Originally posted by murphy4trees
Seems to me that your client owns the airspace and you could legally remove limbs to the property line without permission form the neighbor... So the only question is what was the value/cost of remaining stubs... Would they have regrown into privacy providing limbs...

And from a practical point of view, I'd agree with Rocky... let it go 'til you get the papers... And maybe you could find a way to make peace..

Hey Murphy
Ya I am going to take Rocky's advice and no these stubs would have never amounted to anything but sucker growth
I always look for a good branch to cut to but in this case none could be found
I really meant well when I did it and will do the same again
Me and my stubborn Scottish attitude!
See Ya
John

 

[John Stewart]

Tough choices we face and even tougher keepin up to you on replies!
I agree on every point you made except for the EAB
God help us on that one!
John

 

[Nathan Wreyford]

Rocky is right on, avoid mental masturbation with this lady.

She feels wronged and violated as (to her) she was. She obviously likes trees. That is good. Just saying all I can to see she is not a total witch.:angel:

Last year in Texas we removed the "wrong tree". 8 inch hackberry against a house damaging house severly, blah, blah. Ok, lady wants it replace with an oak of equal size plus compensation for "loss of urban wildlife habitat"

She got work for free. Like brian said, if she wants to sue, let her get her suing pants on. Other than that, cease ALL contact.

.02

 

[NeTree]

I wouldn't sweat it. Tell her to ???? or get off the pot.

Even if she ever did get up the knack to sue, I'd say you did what was right.

 

[taznleo1]

I say climb back up there with a bottle of glue and reglue the limbs back up there...LOL.
Seriously,
I had a job last year where I was working in a fancy neighborhood, where there had to be a 10 foot "buffer" between the houses, where neither of the houses own. Well, there was alot of underbrush, vines, etc. My client hired me to come out and thin out 30 feet behind her house and then clean up the vines. Well, her neighbor came out yelling and screaming at me about how I was tresspassing, etc. I calmly told him that I was hired to do the job and that I couldn't and wouldn't discuss what I was doing. I told him that I would get the lady that hired me and he could talk to her. Which I did, after about 1 hour of waiting on these two to make a decision, I was able to get back to work. They worked out their differences it looked real clean and neat when I left. But I let them deal with the situation. I just took myself out of the middle. It's too late for you to do that, but take this fiasco as a lesson learned.