Do we REALLY want regulatory control?

[danieltree]

We have been discussing this on a Linkdin group I am in and they are mostly management muni arbs. They are all for it of course. The nature of the beast prevents a good system by lacking the ability to be equitable.

I am on my towns Forestry Board and because of this I witness on a daily basis just how much graft and corruption exists everywhere in this small government let alone bigger ones. It is ugly.

Who issues licenses but more important ....who is able to rescind them. That person has corruptible power. But, hey, if you are this person or the ones in the favor of this person, life is all good.

The ISA system is the best out there in establishing a minimum level of knowledge and better yet requiring periodic credit accumulation to stay current and increase knowledge or get booted. After that "let the buyer beware"....forget about government handling anything like this in a positive manner.

And Squirrel, if you cannot pass this entry level test, then you should not be making decisions on what trees should be removed that are not dead and you certainly should not be up there pruning trees.

Also, Treeco, I am amazed you would not support the ISA and dropped your membership. You seem way too smart to not recognize that this the best game in town.

I agree . I would like to see ISA do a little more customer education though. The milk people get together and promote milk, so do the meat people, why cant we run an ISA campaign to let the whole country know that we are the standard maybe run a commercial or two around every regions arbor day. If it was an easily recognized credential that the customer recognized then we all would get it because the customer would know to demand it. Most of my customers have no clue about ISA until I tell them. I guess every arborist promotes ISA if they are certified but I think it means more actually coming from the organization.

 

[jomoco]

I agree . I would like to see ISA do a little more customer education though. The milk people get together and promote milk, so do the meat people, why cant we run an ISA campaign to let the whole country know that we are the standard maybe run a commercial or two around every regions arbor day. If it was an easily recognized credential that the customer recognized then we all would get it because the customer would know to demand it. Most of my customers have no clue about ISA until I tell them. I guess every arborist promotes ISA if they are certified but I think it means more actually coming from the organization.

The ISA and TCIA are far more interested in luxury vacations in Hawaii than they are furthering the average treeworker's safety, knowledge or information/training base accessability.

Aloha!

jomoco

 

[treevet]

I agree . I would like to see ISA do a little more customer education though. The milk people get together and promote milk, so do the meat people, why cant we run an ISA campaign to let the whole country know that we are the standard maybe run a commercial or two around every regions arbor day. If it was an easily recognized credential that the customer recognized then we all would get it because the customer would know to demand it. Most of my customers have no clue about ISA until I tell them. I guess every arborist promotes ISA if they are certified but I think it means more actually coming from the organization.

That is a very good post esp. the last sentence.

My example when I have spoken to them has been the golf tournaments you see on television quite often have commercials for the Golf Course Superintendents of America and this is very high profile.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I would like to see more of a presence on the lawn and garden shows that influence peoples decision making; not just this is what you do, but whys and wherefores.

 

[danieltree]

I would like to see more of a presence on the lawn and garden shows that influence peoples decision making; not just this is what you do, but whys and wherefores.

Yeah, but instead we get a show like "saw for hire". That hurt. I heard ISA raised a stink about it and that helped get it off the air but it would have been nice to see a show or commercial come on to counteract the damage.

 

[scubadude1188]

I think the U.S. Forest service and state forest services should get on board and start promoting proper tree care. They have money, influence and a respected name that the most people know. They could set up at state fairs, and give information to be handed out at nurseries and other such places and start spreading the word. It means more to come from that end then a industry organization that some may see as a way to try to make more money for the industry and not necessarily focused on what is best for the trees.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

They have money,

So you don't complain about paying taxes? This is the "special interest" conundrum: we all hate them until, they are us.

I would much rather see nonprofits doing the shuck and jive then a federally funded campaign.

 

[treevet]

Yeah, but instead we get a show like "saw for hire". That hurt. I heard ISA raised a stink about it and that helped get it off the air but it would have been nice to see a show or commercial come on to counteract the damage.

Don't underestimate the influence of these forums. I think we all were on it long before it reached the ISA's radar.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Don't underestimate the influence of these forums. I think we all were on it long before it reached the ISA's radar.

Yup, it was a grass roots uprising. The ISA called up Noskiwhatever and had him out for a few days to talk. The magazine column said he was very receptive to what they had to say.

 

[scubadude1188]

I would say coming from both sides would probably be the most effective and get the wider range and amount of people on board with proper tree care practices. The question is how will the ISA and TCIA get to the public who are not in the tree industry unless they have already consulted an arborist who used proper tree care practices?

 

[M.D. Vaden]

The only ones to make great livings in the tree biz, consistently, are those in bed with governing bodies via sweetheart contracts that most of us do not have the finances to pursue.

That almost happened in Oregon once when big tree services hired a lobbyist and started schmoozing the contractors board. Took 2 years to stop them. Fortunately the group we put together was 5 times their size, and the state representatives at the last hearing had ears for all the details. The problem was not the regulation or qualified, but the laws and rules neatly tucked in to eliminate small businesses without giving them a transition period or way to prepare.

2009 put a pretty bad taste in the public's mouth about sweetheart contracts and people in bed with governing bodies.

opcorn:

 

[Bermie]

...The ISA system is the best out there in establishing a minimum level of knowledge and better yet requiring periodic credit accumulation to stay current and increase knowledge or get booted. After that "let the buyer beware"....forget about government handling anything like this in a positive manner....

.

...minimum level of knowledge...

I would say that is probably my only beef with the ISA Certified Arborist designation, it established a knowledge base, but unless you voluntarily take the climbers certification as well, there is no need or requirement to demonstrate practical competence, actually applying a tool to a tree, or getting up in a tree to carry out an aerial, visual assessment above ground level.

However having the CA is better than not having it...

I am not ISA certified, I have considered it but with all my UK certifications I reckon I'm somewhere well within their knowledge range AND have practical skills certifications as well so its not a pressing priority.

That's not to say I'll never have a go at it, I am a bit of a procrastinator but I do believe the more the merrier and having a range of certifications from different jurisdictions is a good thing in my books...I will get around to it some time!

To address an earlier query, do the NPTC/City & Guilds certifications and the requirement to hold them to be considered qualified to do tree work in the UK, prevent hacks or 'white van men' from doing tree work??

No...but if they get caught...and it happens, or if there is a safety incident and it is investigated, they are in deep doo doo.

The framework exists for comparison, a framework for determining whether their work is correct or not. It gives a starting point, do you have the minimum qualifications in your possesion to be doing what you do? If you do and your work is ####, then you cannot plead ignorance...you have just shown you do not care and you are an unscrupulous practitioner. If you don't, well...In the Arboriculture Monthly reports I get on email, there are often reports of 'hackers' being caught out misrepresenting themselves and being prosecuted and fined serious amounts of money.

The standards for competence are drawn up by practicing professionals, meetings and practical sessions are held to actually work out in the field whether a proposal is workable in reality. Ive been to some of those meetings and sessions and those guys really hammer it out, agree, disagree, compromise whatever. I's not totally perfect but it does establish an agreed baseline

I work here in a totally unregulated environment, it stings to see landscape companies advertising tree work, seeing that disasterous work and knowing what a customer paid for it...I know of one housing development that paid about $11,000 for three days work by four landscapers in a bucket truck...EVERY tree was cut off level at a 'nice' height, absolutely no regard for species, shape, structure, pruning strategies, whatsoever. But I got turned down to do a rigged removal over a roof because they had spent their buget...so now they have hacked trees and a potential liability over a house.

A landscaper was killed two years ago, 25' up an unsecured ladder, rope tied to a truck, rear handle saw, no rope, no harness, 20' of heavy casurina above him...something went wrong, ladder fell, he fell and 20' of heavy casurina fell on his chest...DEAD...for what?

So do I think that only certified +/or licensed companies or individuals should be allowed to carry out work over 8'....you BET I do!

I say +/or because I have one landscaper pal who has taught himself tree work, he has a background in agronomy and worked his way up the ranks in a good landscape company. I have seen his work and I would be happy for him to work on trees...he's proven it by what he does, no official tree certificates but the proof is in the pudding, and he can tell you why he does what he does. So he may not be certified, but he could be licenced based on demonstrated practical competence and underpinning knowledge.

Ok, I'll stop now...time to watch football and have a

 

[M.D. Vaden]

So do I think that only certified +/or licensed companies or individuals should be allowed to carry out work over 8'....you BET I do!

I had an idea that may be far fetched, but maybe not, considering how many homeowners make foolish choices, like not checking licenses. Or, that some don't pay their bill and and not qualified to know whether work was done right.

How about if homeowners have to be certified to own a home? No recurring fees. But a one-time certification showing they were taught about how to hire contractors and what their own responsibilities are.

Personally, I think that if the law is going to REQUIRE tree companies and landscape companies to have bond and insurance, that the law also REQUIRES any homeowner who signs a service contract to likewise carry a bond.

 

[fishercat]

interesting.

I'm sure I would disagree with some of what they require, but I would much rather have some controls then letting the lawnmower men hack trees up.

I do not fear government as much as I would fear the anarchy some libertarians think we should have. Whether it be the wild west, or the days of Standard Oil and the slave labor in eastern coal mines.

Those who whine about regulations do not study history.

you think another branch of government is going to stop them?

it's already regulated here in Connecticut.you need an arborist license with the state to prune and/or trim.the lawnmower guys still do it without a care in the world.

there will always be customers who don't care because they know if they hire someone with an abrorist license is going to charge more than Jose's lawn service.i don't see what you are accomplishing.you are never going to stop hacks.you can't legislate morality,it's never happened and never will.if you think it will,you're dreaming.

i understand though that you believe government is the answer for everything. when you find something they have fixed,be sure to let me know.

 

[fishercat]

now there's any idea!

I had an idea that may be far fetched, but maybe not, considering how many homeowners make foolish choices, like not checking licenses. Or, that some don't pay their bill and and not qualified to know whether work was done right.

How about if homeowners have to be certified to own a home? No recurring fees. But a one-time certification showing they were taught about how to hire contractors and what their own responsibilities are.

Personally, I think that if the law is going to REQUIRE tree companies and landscape companies to have bond and insurance, that the law also REQUIRES any homeowner who signs a service contract to likewise carry a bond.

makes a lot more sense than regulating us.

kinda like the laws we have on the books now.has banning murder stop people from killing each other? nope,i think it's worse now than it's ever been?

guns are regulated. hasn't stopped gun crimes.

drugs are illegal,funny,people still use them.

 

[treevet]

I don't see that as a reasonable analogy. We are offering the public a service they are breaking the law (including in some cases non licensed hacks).
It is next to impossible to consistently stop someone that is thinking about breaking a law. It is also very difficult to stop someone that is in the process of breaking a law (if you are not there at the time). Enforcement after the fact gets them out of the crime pool theoretically and even inhibits others when they consider breaking law.

But we are talking about discerning people buying services and how can we let them know that we are the right choice? Credentials are one way to identify the learned ones. In a perfect world the ISA is arborists regulating themselves. You get to vote for your state or province or country's rep. Yo can, yourself run for office and move up to run the whole show if the mood strikes but hopefully those that represent you will act in a way that the majority would want you to. Democracy...perfect world....not ours.

Sometimes you have to pick your poison. Mine would non government dispensed.

 

[Bermie]

I had an idea that may be far fetched, but maybe not, considering how many homeowners make foolish choices, like not checking licenses. Or, that some don't pay their bill and and not qualified to know whether work was done right.

How about if homeowners have to be certified to own a home? No recurring fees. But a one-time certification showing they were taught about how to hire contractors and what their own responsibilities are.

Personally, I think that if the law is going to REQUIRE tree companies and landscape companies to have bond and insurance, that the law also REQUIRES any homeowner who signs a service contract to likewise carry a bond.

That's never going to happen...

But on a somewhat similar note, in the UK (ok I sound like a broken record, but better to borrow a wheel than redesign it...)

The Arboricultural Association runs a series of workshops throughout the year across the country called "Engaging Arboricultural Contractors"
It is one day in length and is aimed at municipalities, councils, homeowners associations etc. who may be considering having arboricultural works done for them.
It covers all the topics like why contractors should be certified, what kind of equipment they should have, what kind of insurance they should have, what level of expertise they should expect, why a certified approved company will cost a significant amount of money...they pass around equipment, good and bad, they show videos of accidents...then they go outside and demonstrate good climbing practice, chainsaw use, and pruning technique.
At the end of the day, those groups of people leave with a better idea of what a reputable company looks like, what they will do, and that they should not necessarily take the lowest bid!

Now I REALLY am going to have some

 

[Nailsbeats]

We do not need regulation and it would not be good for the consumer. I've been in the tree biz since 1987 and a Certified Arborist for 18 of those years. It seems most of the posters in this thread want regulation to get the low bidders out of the loop so they can make a better profit. I'm against it. If the client doesn't know better than to buy poor quality work then they will get what they pay for.

I agree 100% with TreeCo's statement here .

The people have what they want now, that's freedom of choice. Pay for good work or get cheap low quality work, it's your choice and that's the way it should be.

 

[danieltree]

Even though I like James the narcoleptic I would not offer that choice to anybody. The guy that tells my customer his tree has pine beetles when it does not just so he can cut it down for some quick cash is not a choice either. I live in a regulated state and we deal with this crap all the time. If there is no label to mark a proven Arborist then how does the customer begin to shop for that choice.​

 

[Nailsbeats]

Even though I like James the narcoleptic I would not offer that choice to anybody. The guy that tells my customer his tree has pine beetles when it does not just so he can cut it down for some quick cash is not a choice either. I live in a regulated state and we deal with this crap all the time. If there is no label to mark a proven Arborist then how does the customer begin to shop for that choice.​

Easy, talk to references. If a consumer cares they'll do the legwork to get a good contractor.