I am with ShoerFast. There are a lot of companies out there promising gains through the use of their product but very few of them actually help any. While I agree that a company's choice of products, like spark plugs, has to do with a lot of different factors including performance, once one is picked the engine design is probably made to accept it. A great example is the plugs on my S10 4.3L, for some reason my truck doesn't like Bosch plugs but runs great on AC Delco. If the saw came with an NGK then that is what I would stick with, there is always a chance the coil altered slightly for optimal performance with an NGK. Its not like NGK is a bad plug, actually they make some of the best plugs out there for small engines and 4 cylinder foreign cars IMHO. Do I think using a Champion plug will destroy the engine? Not at all, it will probably work just fine. Do I think the E3 is a waist? Something inside of me is saying YES YES YES but we may never know for sure.
E3 Spark Plug Issue!!!
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ShoerFast
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Goof
This thread is about a plug manufacture making claims that it has a design that is better then NGK, Champion or Bosh, in fact the good people at E3 spark plug challenge the basic design of all traditional plugs on the principle of ground electrode placement and challenges the basic way they fire. A huge claim in my book, with zero sound data to back it up! (Snake-oil)
In my book, traditional plugs are compatible, and interchangeable, real world test and accurate heat ranges. Being legitimate dose place them in competition for the bid of being the manufactures choice. (or operators choice)
My main stake in this is the out and out lie that the E3 people are trying to sell, There not in this out of the goodness of there heart, there in it to make a dishonest quick buck.
Chainsaws are perhaps as good an example as any to prove this or disprove it, I would challenge that there is not one saw that could cut an arm-load more firewood per tank of fuel, with an E3 plug or complete a cut any faster then a stock plug! (there not trying to sell it as a replacement plug, there claim is that there better)
Here would be a good test, You Tube a timed cut , *have some one put in a plug with out the operator knowing what plug it is, time a cut with Plug "X" , have some one swap the plug and a cut with plug "Y" same chain, operator could hold no bias, that would substanciate a sound claim,,,,, if it could be repeated, constantly,,,, but not by making a claim that there better because nobody is as smart as they are.
I despise Snake-oil sales people, there all the same, and don't stick around, E3 will join the snake-oil hall-of-shame!
* I am just west of Denver, and would be happy to do the plug swapping, or run the saw in a myth-busting log test?
This thread is about a plug manufacture making claims that it has a design that is better then NGK, Champion or Bosh, in fact the good people at E3 spark plug challenge the basic design of all traditional plugs on the principle of ground electrode placement and challenges the basic way they fire. A huge claim in my book, with zero sound data to back it up! (Snake-oil)
In my book, traditional plugs are compatible, and interchangeable, real world test and accurate heat ranges. Being legitimate dose place them in competition for the bid of being the manufactures choice. (or operators choice)
My main stake in this is the out and out lie that the E3 people are trying to sell, There not in this out of the goodness of there heart, there in it to make a dishonest quick buck.
Chainsaws are perhaps as good an example as any to prove this or disprove it, I would challenge that there is not one saw that could cut an arm-load more firewood per tank of fuel, with an E3 plug or complete a cut any faster then a stock plug! (there not trying to sell it as a replacement plug, there claim is that there better)
Here would be a good test, You Tube a timed cut , *have some one put in a plug with out the operator knowing what plug it is, time a cut with Plug "X" , have some one swap the plug and a cut with plug "Y" same chain, operator could hold no bias, that would substanciate a sound claim,,,,, if it could be repeated, constantly,,,, but not by making a claim that there better because nobody is as smart as they are.
I despise Snake-oil sales people, there all the same, and don't stick around, E3 will join the snake-oil hall-of-shame!
* I am just west of Denver, and would be happy to do the plug swapping, or run the saw in a myth-busting log test?
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nate cutter
ArboristSite Operative
My 455 got a new 3e12 spark plug and it has worked great. The boot is close but I don't see any issues with it rubbing or over heating. Wouldn't the added spark plug mass in the head increase the compression slightly? more compression=more power
shadow745
ArboristSite Operative
Well. let me start off by saying thanks for the replies. I see both sides of what you guys say. I guess I'm still on the fence on this one. I know there are tons of products out there that claim to do this or that and plugs are one of them. I haven't used the E3 in my saw yet, but have done so in other applications. I honestly can't say that I've seen any real performance gains , but I can definitely see a difference in a few areas. Starting for one. And before some of you say the machine needed a new plug anyway, that's not the case. I've been using a Ryobi weed trimmer for 7 years or so now and know it like the back of my hand. When cold, it has ALWAYS taken 4 pulls with the choke all the way on for it to pop, then I decrease the choke to half and it starts on the next pull and is ready to go in a minute or so. Been like that since day one. With the new E3 plug it fires under the same conditions on the 2nd or at most 3rd pull. May mean something, but maybe not. I also installed one in my Husky 145BT blower, which is only 6-7 months old. I can't say I've seen any real gains in performance, but like the trimmer, it does start on less pulls. From what I've seen so far (a few hours of use) the plugs run really clean. I've taken them out for observation.
I do believe there's a difference in performance and longevity between the bottom line plugs like Champion and the higher end plugs like Bosch or NGK. I know there may be some Champion fans out there, but to me they're a joke whether used in small engines or in larger applications. I can't honestly say there's a direct correlation to plug performance and longevity between small engines and vehicles, but I have noticed a huge difference between cheaper plugs like Autolite and Champion plugs when compared to Bosch plugs. For years I've been running Bosch Platinum and +4 plugs in our vehicles and those things will crank out 50,000+ miles easy, while a set of Autolite Platinum plugs lasted half that. Maybe that was just one set, but it is factual. I do believe plugs with multiple contact points will distribute the spark more evenly.
Whether these E3 plugs give more performance, efficiency, emissions, etc. I guess everybody has an opinion. Mine is no better than others. If there's a chance that they'll perform as good or better than other brands or types, won't foul and possibly last longer then I'm all for it. Later!
I do believe there's a difference in performance and longevity between the bottom line plugs like Champion and the higher end plugs like Bosch or NGK. I know there may be some Champion fans out there, but to me they're a joke whether used in small engines or in larger applications. I can't honestly say there's a direct correlation to plug performance and longevity between small engines and vehicles, but I have noticed a huge difference between cheaper plugs like Autolite and Champion plugs when compared to Bosch plugs. For years I've been running Bosch Platinum and +4 plugs in our vehicles and those things will crank out 50,000+ miles easy, while a set of Autolite Platinum plugs lasted half that. Maybe that was just one set, but it is factual. I do believe plugs with multiple contact points will distribute the spark more evenly.
Whether these E3 plugs give more performance, efficiency, emissions, etc. I guess everybody has an opinion. Mine is no better than others. If there's a chance that they'll perform as good or better than other brands or types, won't foul and possibly last longer then I'm all for it. Later!
Gravely Grinch
ArboristSite Operative
I don't know how these E3 plugs perform in cars or saws for that matter but I know for a fact that they don't work AT ALL in L-head mower engines. I've not seen the first mower that will run on these things.
These rocket surgeons at E3 have come up with a series of 5 "super plugs" that will replace (according to them anyway) just about every plug ever used in a small engine. Bullfeathers!
Their application guide says you can replace an NGK BPMR4A, BPM7A and BPM8Y with the same plug. Need I say more?
These rocket surgeons at E3 have come up with a series of 5 "super plugs" that will replace (according to them anyway) just about every plug ever used in a small engine. Bullfeathers!
Their application guide says you can replace an NGK BPMR4A, BPM7A and BPM8Y with the same plug. Need I say more?
GASoline71
Mr. Nice Guy
I need to gets me some Split-fire plugs for my saws!!!
Gary
Gary
hornett22
Addicted to ArboristSite
it's a gimmick.
stay with NGK,Bosch,champion.
stay with NGK,Bosch,champion.
Mike mandry
ArboristSite Guru
I need to gets me some Split-fire plugs for my saws!!!
Gary
I was waiting for someone to chime in on the splitfire plugs...
Do they still make those ??
shadow745
ArboristSite Operative
No offense, but IMO Champion doesn't even belong in the same class with Bosch or NGK. They may be OK for an old lawn mower or whatever, but not the best for all out performance. I'd use one to get by until I could buy something better, but that's it.
BTW, have many of you visited the E3 website? They do have some great info on why they think this plug is superior to others.
And yes, SplitFire plugs are still around. Later!
hornett22
Addicted to ArboristSite
i agree,champion does not compare............
that is why it is listed last.the problem with multiple electrode plugs is no matter how close one electrode is compared to the other,spark is going to the one closer.
that is why it is listed last.the problem with multiple electrode plugs is no matter how close one electrode is compared to the other,spark is going to the one closer.
ShoerFast
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I have some very good friends that I will help out sometime, that have a 7 second / 200MPH Quick 16 car (with a Keith Black engine) that will argue the point of Champion being anything less then par! (there proof is there recording data, and they can show you data from improper plugs)
I will argue that Champion offers more "true" part numbers and heat ranges then any other brand out there. Sort of a "good to know" thing!
But it brings up a point, if I may ask? *How dose someone put a plug on there sheet list? Just speaking for myself, but I have replaced and swapped several hundred pounds of spark plugs over the years, and only a very small parentage of them actually had a problem that was due to a defective spark plug,,,,,,,, just a guess, but maybe like only 1% of bad plugs that are replaced are due to a defective plug.
Champion is by far the worlds favorite spark plug! And Champion is specified as original equipment by more engine manufacturers than any other plug in the world, and is the first- or second-most recommended plug for every automotive replacement application!
*I put e3's on my sheet- list because there out-right dishonest!
Tzed250
Addicted to ArboristSite
I need to gets me some Split-fire plugs for my saws!!!
Gary
Its SPLEEET-FARR!!!:hmm3grin2orange:
Butch(OH)
Addicted to ArboristSite
None of ya West gin-yans kin talk rat,, SPLIT FAR Gesh
Tzed250
Addicted to ArboristSite
In the end the e3 is nothing more then another split fire and there is one main problem with both of these designs. When the electrical charge is sent to the spark plug it will arch across the path of least resistance, this is basic electronics. You could have 5 electrode points but the current will only arch across to one of them. IMO having too much electrode area could hurt just as having too little. If there is more then necessary then the spark will be seen by less fuel/air mixture, causing a slower combustion. Either way, I am sticking with NGKs as their reputation says it all.
GPH85
ArboristSite Operative
You just aren't getting what I'm trying to say here... AND you aren't seeing the whole picture and I'm sorry if I sound hateful here, but I don't like it when someone points out something and doesn't know the whole of what they are talking about... THIS is why I have pointed out and pointed out that you must first understand airflow to know why this plug is better in most cylinder applications (not all but most)... YES fuel ignites from particle to particle. This is why an engine running rich will use up less of it's "whole" spark energy or coil capable output to jump the gap of a plug "more atoms = easier to jump the gap thus resulting in more dwell or time that the spark is maintained across the plug gap". BY understanding airflow I am going to try and point it out as simply as possible.
There is more involved in a cylinder than just fuel particles igniting... The most important factor is the "swirl" of the air fuel mix in the cylinder... WHAT if I have a cylinder that has the plug located in an area of the combustion chamber where a very small amount of air/fuel mix is swirling? Yes it's still going to ignite. As long as there is something for the current to ground out to, it will spark. BUT if it's igniting in that low fuel mix concentrated area, it's going to burn slower ~ almost as a delayed or "retarded" spark in that cylinder. Now if I can focus that burn in the denser area of the fuel mix, would you not agree that it would burn more efficiently?
You also have to play that ground electrode into this... The fuel ignites and burns outwards, but anything it hits will change the burn "domino effect". In other words one particle ignites another and then that one ignites another and so on, but if I've got the opening of the plug turned straight into a low concentration area of the fuel mix and on top of that the ground electrode is facing the majority mix area, well the fuel will ignite "weaker" and use the ground electrode as a shield being forced around the outer edges of the combustion chamber and eventually getting caught up in the natural swirl and igniting the center "more concentrated" area of the combustion chamber...
ALSO by definition. A detonation is a igniting of the fuel mix before the spark plug is fired, not after... AFTER is a "controlled" or determined burn.
ALSO as stated before, yes the 3.9l is a computer controlled engine, but it's still just an air pump correct? Plus it's not the computer controlled engine that you are referring to. Only one coil that fires ALL the cylinders either advanced or retarded.
NOW, yes a coil on plug modern engine does have the capability of controlling each individual cylinders advance and retard, but to an extremely minor degree. In fact it's used to control engine idle and very very minor power balance equilibrium... They can't advance and retard ignition timing enough to make outrageous adjustments. Also the "learn" your referring to is short term and long term fuel trims. The computer will adjust amount of fuel on each engine bank to keep an engine running as clean as it can. Keep in mind I said "bank" not cylinder. They're not quite capable of doing this yet, it would take an O2 sensor per cylinder to do this. BUT now with the plugs we can control the burn and equilibrium of each cylinder as much as "humanly" possible.
If you don't agree with, see or understand any of this, well I'm done arguing or rather pointing out the points. I also agree with you on the dyno points. I've run a dyno, there are many ways to influence the outputs, but I know this guy and he doesn't do any of this. He simply tries out one product against another to get the most out of his engine for as cheap as possible.
Like I said I'm done, use what you want. I can tell a difference when I use them. I use to be dead set on bosch plugs that I would degree, but with the E3's I don't have to degree and they still perform better somehow. I also agree that you can't take out an old plug and put in an E3 and say that the E3's are so much superior. It's like comparing apples to oranges in a case such as this, which is why a new plug was compared to a new plug in Larry's dyno runs and is also why I compared a new plug "bosch" to a new plug "E3" in the wood. The E3 just seemed to pull stronger.
There is more involved in a cylinder than just fuel particles igniting... The most important factor is the "swirl" of the air fuel mix in the cylinder... WHAT if I have a cylinder that has the plug located in an area of the combustion chamber where a very small amount of air/fuel mix is swirling? Yes it's still going to ignite. As long as there is something for the current to ground out to, it will spark. BUT if it's igniting in that low fuel mix concentrated area, it's going to burn slower ~ almost as a delayed or "retarded" spark in that cylinder. Now if I can focus that burn in the denser area of the fuel mix, would you not agree that it would burn more efficiently?
You also have to play that ground electrode into this... The fuel ignites and burns outwards, but anything it hits will change the burn "domino effect". In other words one particle ignites another and then that one ignites another and so on, but if I've got the opening of the plug turned straight into a low concentration area of the fuel mix and on top of that the ground electrode is facing the majority mix area, well the fuel will ignite "weaker" and use the ground electrode as a shield being forced around the outer edges of the combustion chamber and eventually getting caught up in the natural swirl and igniting the center "more concentrated" area of the combustion chamber...
ALSO by definition. A detonation is a igniting of the fuel mix before the spark plug is fired, not after... AFTER is a "controlled" or determined burn.
ALSO as stated before, yes the 3.9l is a computer controlled engine, but it's still just an air pump correct? Plus it's not the computer controlled engine that you are referring to. Only one coil that fires ALL the cylinders either advanced or retarded.
NOW, yes a coil on plug modern engine does have the capability of controlling each individual cylinders advance and retard, but to an extremely minor degree. In fact it's used to control engine idle and very very minor power balance equilibrium... They can't advance and retard ignition timing enough to make outrageous adjustments. Also the "learn" your referring to is short term and long term fuel trims. The computer will adjust amount of fuel on each engine bank to keep an engine running as clean as it can. Keep in mind I said "bank" not cylinder. They're not quite capable of doing this yet, it would take an O2 sensor per cylinder to do this. BUT now with the plugs we can control the burn and equilibrium of each cylinder as much as "humanly" possible.
If you don't agree with, see or understand any of this, well I'm done arguing or rather pointing out the points. I also agree with you on the dyno points. I've run a dyno, there are many ways to influence the outputs, but I know this guy and he doesn't do any of this. He simply tries out one product against another to get the most out of his engine for as cheap as possible.
Like I said I'm done, use what you want. I can tell a difference when I use them. I use to be dead set on bosch plugs that I would degree, but with the E3's I don't have to degree and they still perform better somehow. I also agree that you can't take out an old plug and put in an E3 and say that the E3's are so much superior. It's like comparing apples to oranges in a case such as this, which is why a new plug was compared to a new plug in Larry's dyno runs and is also why I compared a new plug "bosch" to a new plug "E3" in the wood. The E3 just seemed to pull stronger.
GASoline71
Mr. Nice Guy
Gary...I just looked out the window and saw it screamin down the road....
Should I send it back........
.
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ShoerFast
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Gotta really dig da overdrive!
ShoerFast
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I heard you the first time,,,, your missing the BIGGER, bigger picture....
Simply anyone that tries to make a point of there understanding of cylinder dynamics and ignition propagation, and use there base platform as how a certain spark plug offers a better burn,,, at WOT, is not only in the wrong church, there in the wrong bower band!
At WOT throttle, and an engine all wound up, there never is a problem getting the burning fuel into every section of cylinder. Most every engine builder there is dose not seem to think that engines need any more spark advance after somewhere near what? 2200 - 2800 rpm's (4-cycle car/truck) because cylinders are so turbulent at WOT.
Saws run at what? 13K . It is even hard to imagine how turbulence the air is at that speed, but it is very clear that the spark shape or electrode degree is one of the least of it's worries. Now keeping the pressures at an even rise. with out it exploding is a little harder in higher performance engines, they would make the E3 plug more worthless by there own claims.
But if I may? in your description of the "rich running engine" spark demand. What are you considering "Rich" and what are you saying the "spark line" would look like on a scope?
What are you saying that an E3 plug's spark line looks like, compared to a stock plug, if i may ask?
Maybe I am to "old school" to understand the "advanced technologies" of the E3 plug? But I did fairly well in the old school.
