Butch(OH)
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Iffen you put a set of these in you would tear passen gear clean out.
From your 1960 JC Whitney catalog FIRE INJECTORS!!!
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E3 Spark Plug Issue!!!
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Iffen you put a set of these in you would tear passen gear clean out.
From your 1960 JC Whitney catalog FIRE INJECTORS!!!
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goof008
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sorry for nerves hit, but I wasn't saying that the E3 is the best thing since sliced bread. I merely said it was working for me just fine. I agree that NGK is probably the best plug you can put in a 2-stroke engine. I feel that bosch platinum's are the best you can put into a car/truck engine. I bought the E3 as a back up at HD because I was there, and so were the plugs, call it destiny if you will. I bought it for the same reason I have 2 extra bar nuts, an extra air filter and a lot of extra chains....because I would rather have one more than I need than one less. Since HD doesn't sell NGK or Champion, the E3 was the only choice. And since the saw runs well with it in, why would I take out until it starts to act up? I will be picking up an NGK to back up the E3 soon, but it isn't going to get into the starting line up until the E3 falters. I hope the spark plug gods don't smite me for that.
Is this going to turn into another Ceramic Bearing thread?
Ian
Ian
ShoerFast
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What a cool find Butch!
I remember them, they were selling the fire injectors nearly the same way the new snake oil E3 plug shakes the magic tamborine at the way there plug fires!
Butch(OH)
Addicted to ArboristSite
Pheeew! I hope not. I checked that thread out and quickly learned I aint smart enough to run with that crowd.
GASoline71
Mr. Nice Guy
Gary...I just looked out the window and saw it screamin down the road....
Should I send it back........
.
It knows the way home... just throw one of yer 066's on there with it!
Gary
JohnL
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I am a skeptic.
In theory it would be very easy to compare dyno pulls with each type of plug, I would like to see it done by an independent tester that has no interest in the outcome.
They have had all kinds of gimmick plugs for many years, many came out of the drag racing craze of the '50s. None are still around today that I know of.
They have side-gap electrode plugs offered by name brand makers, where the spark is not blocked by the ground electrode. What advantage would an E3 have as compared to them?
Think of all the money spent on R&D by GM, Ford, etc. to try and get as much power, and efficiency out of an engine. Why do they not spec an E3 type plug for use in their engines?
You believe that the open spark path puts the flame front in a location where the air/fuel suspension is richer, why would that be the case?
........
You said that
"ALSO by definition. A detonation is a igniting of the fuel mix before the spark plug is fired, not after... AFTER is a "controlled" or determined burn."
This is actually not true. True detonation occurs after the spark. It is not a controlled burn. It occurs as the heat and pressure rise to a level that causes the remaining a/f mix to spontaneously ignite, as opposed to burning particle to particle in a controlled way. It is the chemical octane property of the fuel to resist this, higher octane, less likely to detonate.
Igniting of the A/F mix prior to the spark is Pre-ignition.
goof008
ArboristSite Operative
JohnL
Ford, GM, and Chrysler don't have an E3 spec because they do not produce a plug like that. I remember back in the late 80's/early 90's when Bosch came out with the new fangled "Gimmick" or "Snake oil" plugs, I believe they called them "Bosch Platinum's". Now who wold ever need a plug with platinum in it? They claimed it would last longer and give better performance. No way, if that were true the Big 3 would have put them in the cars stock right? And how do you get 100k miles out of a spark plug?!? It can't be true. Oh wait, what's that you say, all the new cars from them come with that type of plug and they have for over 10 years?!? Are you sure? And you say they are branded as Motorcraft, AC Delco and Mopar.
The point is that the Big 3, and most of the Jap car makers, do not jump at all the newest technology. They dissect it, find out how it works and find out how to make it just different enough to not have to pay for the patent rights for it. Then they make it under their brand name and make money on the service parts. I am not saying that the E3 or any plug similar to it will ever make into a production car, but similar technology might....just like those crazy Germans and the Platinum plugs!
Ford, GM, and Chrysler don't have an E3 spec because they do not produce a plug like that. I remember back in the late 80's/early 90's when Bosch came out with the new fangled "Gimmick" or "Snake oil" plugs, I believe they called them "Bosch Platinum's". Now who wold ever need a plug with platinum in it? They claimed it would last longer and give better performance. No way, if that were true the Big 3 would have put them in the cars stock right? And how do you get 100k miles out of a spark plug?!? It can't be true. Oh wait, what's that you say, all the new cars from them come with that type of plug and they have for over 10 years?!? Are you sure? And you say they are branded as Motorcraft, AC Delco and Mopar.
The point is that the Big 3, and most of the Jap car makers, do not jump at all the newest technology. They dissect it, find out how it works and find out how to make it just different enough to not have to pay for the patent rights for it. Then they make it under their brand name and make money on the service parts. I am not saying that the E3 or any plug similar to it will ever make into a production car, but similar technology might....just like those crazy Germans and the Platinum plugs!
ShoerFast
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Your talking apples and horse-apples here.
Comparing a traditional plug, made out of better materials to last longer, is a way different story then a fly-by night manufacture making a claim that there "advanced technology" has revolutionized the plug industry and boast a superior cylinder burn.
It is no secret that the big-3 had a direction of obtaining a 10 year or 100K mile bumper - bumper warranty, I first heard of it back in the early 80's,,,,sounded outlandish at the time, they nailed it.
The E3 idea came out in the early 1900's ,,,,,, back when they mounted coils upside down so the "juice" would flow out better. It was latter proven that neither really worked and sparkplug design was simplified.
Maybe a rehearsal of what really takes place?
*The definition of the spark plug's purpose is straight forward. A spark plug seals the combustion chamber. It conducts a spark that is generated in the ignition coil into the combustion chamber and provides a gap for that spark to jump across. Finally, it conducts the heat it picks up in the combustion process to the cylinder head and into the cooling system. When a spark plug provides these three basic items, it is then capable of initiating the combustion process, There is a large amount of technology which goes into the design and manufacture of a spark plug that meets these requirements and provides long life and superior engine performance. It is important to remember that there is no design that will allow a spark plug to generate more voltage or hotter spark because the spark energy is generated in the coil. It is also important to remember that spark plugs do not produce heat. They pick up heat from the combustion chamber and move it to the cooling system. This basic definition of a spark plug will benefit you as the features and designs of Champion spark plugs are described. It will also help you to better understand the value of reading spark plug firing end conditions.
And to take it one step further, installing an E3 spark plug will void some warranties!
* Cut and paste from: http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/spkplghnbook.htm#purpose
GPH85
ArboristSite Operative
You want to know the funny thing about this? Nascar uses a plug nearly identical to this one this very day and time...
Your absolutely right. I was thinking of preignition.
I don't have any spark lines to show, but by the richer fuel mix having more dwell is becuase there is less used coil energy used to jump the gap of the plug, thus resulting in more dwell.
Butch(OH)
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yessir, called a surface gap plug, kinda works the same only Whitney claimed their version shot fire into the cylinders, LOL
NovaMan
ArboristSite Operative
PETE'S SPARK PLUG DIATRIBE
Disclaimer: there are many, MANY people who know more about internal combustion engines than I do, and who have more experience with them as well. However, I believe I have a fair amount of book learnin, all of which I have done on my own time - I have never had any formal training on engine design.
Directionality
Let's assume for a moment you can control the direction (or shape) of the flame kernel. The plug fires as the piston is coming up toward the combustion chamber. So if the cylinder bore centerline is vertical, the piston is moving up, and decreasing the vertical distance the flame must travel. The horizontal distance remains the same, and is larger. The flame front must travel a greater horizontal distance than vertical. IF you could direct the flame kernel, you would want to direct it sideways, not vertically down toward the piston.
Ground Straps
The ground strap is in the way of the flame kernel, so it is a slight impediment to flame propagation. The more ground straps, the more obstructions. Indexing or dialing the spark plug can reduce the impact of this phenomenon.
The Spark
The more atoms there are between the center electrode and the ground strap, the more voltage it takes to ionize the gap, which means it's harder to fire the plug. More gap, higher compression, or more fuel particles in the way (like nitro or alcohol instead of gasoline) all make it harder to generate a spark. Once you ionize the gap, you want a nice, fat, hot spark. These are the reasons high performance cars must run high voltage, high current ignition systems.
Also, more RPM requires more advance. I don't know why flame speed doesn't vary much, but that must be the case because performance distributors are set up to increase advance with increasing RPM. At higher RPM, you have to start the spark sooner so that peak cylinder pressure is reached at the same crank angle as at lower RPMs - somewhat past TDC so that the piston has some lever arm on the crank.
High Performance Plugs
The only hot rod spark plug design I'm aware of which has shown gains time and time again is the cut-back ground strap. You can do this mod yourself or you can buy race plugs with the ground straps already cut back from any number of companies like Champion and Autolite.
There is some evidence that narrower and sharper electrodes (like Denso Iridium and to a lesser degree the AC Delco Rapidfire) provide superior performance, but you don't want them to be too sharp because they become hot spots, and they erode quickly anyway.
My opinion, which is not backed up by any dyno or timed testing whatsoever, is that if you're looking for the last few horses on a V8 which already makes hundreds of HP (so maybe a 1% increase), trick plugs and a hotter ignition can help... but you'll have to change the plugs more often. If you want noticeable gains from a stock chainsaw, port something.
Disclaimer: there are many, MANY people who know more about internal combustion engines than I do, and who have more experience with them as well. However, I believe I have a fair amount of book learnin, all of which I have done on my own time - I have never had any formal training on engine design.
Directionality
Let's assume for a moment you can control the direction (or shape) of the flame kernel. The plug fires as the piston is coming up toward the combustion chamber. So if the cylinder bore centerline is vertical, the piston is moving up, and decreasing the vertical distance the flame must travel. The horizontal distance remains the same, and is larger. The flame front must travel a greater horizontal distance than vertical. IF you could direct the flame kernel, you would want to direct it sideways, not vertically down toward the piston.
Ground Straps
The ground strap is in the way of the flame kernel, so it is a slight impediment to flame propagation. The more ground straps, the more obstructions. Indexing or dialing the spark plug can reduce the impact of this phenomenon.
The Spark
The more atoms there are between the center electrode and the ground strap, the more voltage it takes to ionize the gap, which means it's harder to fire the plug. More gap, higher compression, or more fuel particles in the way (like nitro or alcohol instead of gasoline) all make it harder to generate a spark. Once you ionize the gap, you want a nice, fat, hot spark. These are the reasons high performance cars must run high voltage, high current ignition systems.
Also, more RPM requires more advance. I don't know why flame speed doesn't vary much, but that must be the case because performance distributors are set up to increase advance with increasing RPM. At higher RPM, you have to start the spark sooner so that peak cylinder pressure is reached at the same crank angle as at lower RPMs - somewhat past TDC so that the piston has some lever arm on the crank.
High Performance Plugs
The only hot rod spark plug design I'm aware of which has shown gains time and time again is the cut-back ground strap. You can do this mod yourself or you can buy race plugs with the ground straps already cut back from any number of companies like Champion and Autolite.
There is some evidence that narrower and sharper electrodes (like Denso Iridium and to a lesser degree the AC Delco Rapidfire) provide superior performance, but you don't want them to be too sharp because they become hot spots, and they erode quickly anyway.
My opinion, which is not backed up by any dyno or timed testing whatsoever, is that if you're looking for the last few horses on a V8 which already makes hundreds of HP (so maybe a 1% increase), trick plugs and a hotter ignition can help... but you'll have to change the plugs more often. If you want noticeable gains from a stock chainsaw, port something.
GPH85
ArboristSite Operative
Your right on just about everything you pointed out here except "if I read it right", the more fuel particles you have inbetween the gap of the plug the easier it is to fire. Just think of a bolt of lightning jumping from particle to particle as it shoots toward the ground. It uses a lot more KV's to jump a bare gap than it does one with fuel particles in it and engines always fire before TDC. In theory, an engine is more efficient or rather about as well designed as it can be the closer to tdc it is required to fire while still making the most power possible.
I was allways told that the reason the plugs with the ground electrodes shaved back were so great was because they did just what I've been trying to point out. They sent the flame front outward into the cylinder instead of shrouding it like all other tradition plugs do.
OH and the reason why this particular plug is used in Nascar is becuase they had a lot of issues with ground straps burning or breaking off in the high rpm engines. They still serve the function, but serve multiple reasons of gain at the same time.
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ShoerFast
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Having asked this question before back in post #40 :
"But if I may? in your description of the "rich running engine" spark demand. What are you considering "Rich" and what are you saying the "spark line" would look like on a scope?"
In hope to establish a couple things, One, the more you can get between the ground and electrode and the ground, the harder it is to cross. A vacuum would be easy to bridge, air harder, compressed air harder again,,,and hi-compression engines are hard on plugs,,,,,, air and fuel offer a resistance to electric , the more air and fuel, the harder to bridge the gap,,,,, very easy to see on a good oscilloscope.
The second hope was to establish any oscilloscope experience, as tying scope readings in , especially under heavy dyno loads can give the true bottom line of ignition voltage demands,,,,, from that we can see cylinder firing pressures and approaching detonations/confirmed detonations.
Cutting the ground electrode has more to do with how electric flows or in this case, bridges a gap. Spark likes something close and crisp to jump to, look at lightning and how it will take the highest tree. Cutting the ground tang gives a sharper platform to jump to, hotter spark! It dose un-shroud an area, it dose not direct the flame front. At the cost of a plug that wares out faster, small price when talking performance.
Here is a fairly easy mod that will work on a chainsaw, it will make an easier starting engine, with maybe a little more power if your ignition timing is a little slow. (most are very slow, and there would be more gain by advancing the timing)
This mod would not prevent a spark plug from burning or braking off it's ground electrode, the mere mention of such a wives-tale is silly. About as silly as saying that: " They sent the flame front outward into the cylinder instead of shrouding it like all other tradition plugs do." A truly Snake-Oil statement.
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ShoerFast
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Another Snake oil plug......
Here is another Snake-Oil plug, I meet the guy that made these, my first impression of him was "what a squirrel" he did not change my first impression!
Snake-Oil Plug
Here is another Snake-Oil plug, I meet the guy that made these, my first impression of him was "what a squirrel" he did not change my first impression!
Snake-Oil Plug
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GPH85, what I don't understand of your response was, "They sent the flame front outward into the cylinder instead of shrouding it like all other tradition plugs do." A spark plug does not produce "flame" but an arch of current between two pieces of metal. The "traditional" style plug will create a spark that basically runs parallel with the plug's axis. With the shaved back electrode type plug the spark will still travel parallel to the plug's axis. A plug does not have the ability to "send flame" in a specific direction but can only create a spark. The high voltage moving between the electrodes causes electrons to excite and run into one another, creating lots of heat. It is this heat that ignites the fuel/oxygen mixture in the cylinder. The only reason this mix "explodes" instead of just flame up is because of the compressed mixture. The compression of this mix causes an increase in temperature due to increased pressure, this from the ideal gas law of pV=nRT, which results in all the gas to vaporize prior to the spark. While the mix does technically burn within the cylinder, it occurs extremely fast due to good combustion conditions and we consider it an "explosion." All this happens so quickly I find it hard to believe the E3 design would really make much of a difference. One thing to note is that things like chain saws have a lot of inefficiencies, like imperfect fuel/oxygen mixtures and very basic cylinder designs, and spark plug design is probably going to add very little in these applications (we are not running race car quality engines here).
As for the Bosch Platinum thing, I hope automotive manufacturers spend lots of time testing before using something. If they didn't we would probably have a lot more premature engine failures due to unproven designs like the E3 (disclaimer: not saying that the E3 will cause premature engine failure just that it is unproven and some unproven technology has caused engine failure)
As for the Bosch Platinum thing, I hope automotive manufacturers spend lots of time testing before using something. If they didn't we would probably have a lot more premature engine failures due to unproven designs like the E3 (disclaimer: not saying that the E3 will cause premature engine failure just that it is unproven and some unproven technology has caused engine failure)
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Sprig
Addicted to ArboristSite
Well gee thanks alot!
Now I have gone dun learned about sparkplugs thanks to youse guys! Well expressed info there Shoerfast btw (others too but his post stuck, rep.), I already knew the basic concept but can now express it better if asked. :rockn:
To an interesting and informative thread!
opcorn:
Now I have gone dun learned about sparkplugs thanks to youse guys! Well expressed info there Shoerfast btw (others too but his post stuck, rep.), I already knew the basic concept but can now express it better if asked. :rockn:
To an interesting and informative thread!opcorn:ShoerFast, I had forgotten about that plug with the hole in the ground electrode...designs like that are a joke and I hope the companies not only went out of business but if they made "more power" type claims I hope they got sued and had to give money back to their customers.
GPH85
ArboristSite Operative
Sorry, I've been away a few days. Not long enough for some of you I'm sure.
On a scope, a slightly richer fuel mix will show a smaller firing line. By this I'm referring to the line or energy required to jump the gap. You can also run a closer gap to achieve the same objective here, but as knowledgeable as you are here, I believe you already know this. Yes air and pressure all are resistances to a plug firing. BUT does electrical current not travel easier via a liquid than an open gap. Just look at a flooded engine. The current travels all around the plug to reach ground via the fuel that is coating the plug instead of jumping the gap.
By having fuel particles or atoms closely gathered inbetween the plug gap, it allows the current to jump from atom to atom, easily bridging the gap resulting in a lower firing kv. In this case you have to compare resistances to resistances. Which resistance has the greater resistance. Air? Liquid fuel? Extreme cylinder pressure?
Secondly here, I know a plug doesn't shoot a flame, but it does create the flame and any shrouding created by the plug effects how this flame front moves. Take a cutting torch or any sort of torch, now light it and place an object in front of it. Does the flame just pass through this object, or does it have to travel around it? Same thing applies to all flame fronts and air flow. I agree a simple hole in the ground electrode isn't going to affect anything simply because the hole is no where near big enough.
I just wish I had some of the videos I've seen on how a plug ignites the air fuel mix so I wouldn't have to explain everything time and time again.
On a scope, a slightly richer fuel mix will show a smaller firing line. By this I'm referring to the line or energy required to jump the gap. You can also run a closer gap to achieve the same objective here, but as knowledgeable as you are here, I believe you already know this. Yes air and pressure all are resistances to a plug firing. BUT does electrical current not travel easier via a liquid than an open gap. Just look at a flooded engine. The current travels all around the plug to reach ground via the fuel that is coating the plug instead of jumping the gap.
By having fuel particles or atoms closely gathered inbetween the plug gap, it allows the current to jump from atom to atom, easily bridging the gap resulting in a lower firing kv. In this case you have to compare resistances to resistances. Which resistance has the greater resistance. Air? Liquid fuel? Extreme cylinder pressure?
Secondly here, I know a plug doesn't shoot a flame, but it does create the flame and any shrouding created by the plug effects how this flame front moves. Take a cutting torch or any sort of torch, now light it and place an object in front of it. Does the flame just pass through this object, or does it have to travel around it? Same thing applies to all flame fronts and air flow. I agree a simple hole in the ground electrode isn't going to affect anything simply because the hole is no where near big enough.
I just wish I had some of the videos I've seen on how a plug ignites the air fuel mix so I wouldn't have to explain everything time and time again.
