Elephant in the room.

[beastmaster]

I am no expert at hazard tree evaluation, but I like to think I know something about them. I was contacted this week to prune several stone pines at a house. The home owner loves his trees. A well known consulting arborist with a PhD regularly inspects and treats the trees on the property. The Company I was working with is known for doing exceptional good work. This is the first time they have worked on them. The home owners are loaded and willing to pay any amount to keep their trees healthy and beautiful.
One of the trees really concern me. It has a heavy lean over the two story house and their bedroom. The tree has a tremendous amount of weight up in the crown. It's growing off a steep embankment, and I could see fissures in the soil around the base. The photos don't come close to showing the size of this tree. I took the boss aside and voiced my concerns, and suggested I could remove a section of the tree up in the crown that shoots straight up. Its over 14 inches and goes up 30 feet. It wouldn't even be noticed if it was gone, that along with some of the branches that grow downward on the main trunk would remove a lot of end weight.
He told me to try and remove as much weight as I could doiView attachment 275280View attachment 275281View attachment 275282View attachment 275283ng small pruning cuts. I was told the tree has stood for 25 years with out falling over yet.
No one wants to rock the boat. I did what I was told and payed for. I know better then to voice my opinion, so I will choke it up.
No one else seems conserned, am I seeing problems where there are none? I have no problem being wrong if that is the case. Here are some photos, for my piece of mind, what do any of you think?

 

[Jed1124]

Looking at photo 3 I would say it's not a matter of if but when it's going to go. Hard to imagine a HO would even want to keep a tree like that.

 

[richard t]

You're right about the soil around the tree and the heavy lean over the house. Small pruning cuts may not be enough. I wouldn't want that tree over my house.

 

[treemandan]

Hmmm, you need a PHD to know that what goes up must come down? And by the sound of it Beasty, the clients got tired of paying the last guy as his rates went up and they are looking for a new lackey to run at their beck and call.

Boy, i sure have a bad attitude huh? Its gotta be depressing for you guys. Sorry and please don't go killing yerself on my account.

 

[Zale]

The old "salesman vs. climber" debate. You've made your manager aware of the situation and condition of the tree. How do you know the homeowner is not already aware of the issues? Situations like these happen when you work for a large company and everyone has a opinion. Is it in your job description to make the client aware of any potential hazards? Don't sweat it.

 

[treemandan]

And basically, this consulting arborist ( who is probably a raving pederast , cheats on his taxes and eats yogurt with freeze dried kale in it) pretty much dumped any liability on the hands of the people who actually are capable of knowing up from down.

Man I should go back to one of those positive thinking seminars but I gotta say I think all those people were fooling themselves.

 

[treemandan]

The old "salesman vs. climber" debate. You've made your manager aware of the situation and condition of the tree. How do you know the homeowner is not already aware of the issues? Situations like these happen when you work for a large company and everyone has a opinion. Is it in your job description to make the client aware of any potential hazards? Don't sweat it.

I think Beasty is just trying to figure out where Mr. Consultant is getting off.

 

[deevo]

I am no expert at hazard tree evaluation, but I like to think I know something about them. I was contacted this week to prune several stone pines at a house. The home owner loves his trees. A well known consulting arborist with a PhD regularly inspects and treats the trees on the property. The Company I was working with is known for doing exceptional good work. This is the first time they have worked on them. The home owners are loaded and willing to pay any amount to keep their trees healthy and beautiful.
One of the trees really concern me. It has a heavy lean over the two story house and their bedroom. The tree has a tremendous amount of weight up in the crown. It's growing off a steep embankment, and I could see fissures in the soil around the base. The photos don't come close to showing the size of this tree. I took the boss aside and voiced my concerns, and suggested I could remove a section of the tree up in the crown that shoots straight up. Its over 14 inches and goes up 30 feet. It wouldn't even be noticed if it was gone, that along with some of the branches that grow downward on the main trunk would remove a lot of end weight.
He told me to try and remove as much weight as I could doiView attachment 275280View attachment 275281View attachment 275282View attachment 275283ng small pruning cuts. I was told the tree has stood for 25 years with out falling over yet.
No one wants to rock the boat. I did what I was told and payed for. I know better then to voice my opinion, so I will choke it up.
No one else seems conserned, am I seeing problems where there are none? I have no problem being wrong if that is the case. Here are some photos, for my piece of mind, what do any of you think?

Like some others have said, why would you want that tree over your house like that? It's an ugly eye sore anyways! It's only a matter of time til that tree ends up on the house from a good storm, must have a strong root system to keep it the way it is right now. That's a very simple risk assessment right there. Risky lean> for sure target. Anyways those are my thoughts based on the pics.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Wade, that don't look like a stone pine, looks like an aleppo.
Anyway, you did your job, you ain't liable. Aleppo's here alway's have problems.
Jeff

 

[Pelorus]

Don't let their poor judgement and lack of common sense get to you, Beast.
You could end up like me, all cynical and bitter, lol.

 

[beastmaster]

I get pissed off some times while working for other company's because I'm outside the loop. I wasn't hired to evaluate the tree I understand that, but it's frustrating being treated like a yahoo. I am not a business man, that is way I don't have my own company, but lots of owner operators are good business men, but don't know trees or have any desire to learn. More so then not when I work for a company I am told straight out, don't talk the the home owner, I know it's because I might make them look bad or trip them up on something. That is their business, and I respect that.
I just can't help to think I would be more valuable if they used me in an arborist position, and not just for my tree climbing skills. Ego's get in the way. Not everyone is like that either, There are some great guys out there too.
I'v worked up though the ranks, but to most who I'v known for many years, I am still just Wade the tree climber employee. No amount of school, or certs is going to change that, Sorry about the venting.

 

[Pelorus]

I am still just Wade the tree climber employee. No amount of school, or certs is going to change thatQUOTE]

I get told how I should do such and such once in awhile by owners of million dollar "cottages". They lemme know how they would do the job, as if they forgot to bring their rigging & saws up from the city. They usually (not always) turn out to be ok by the time the job is completed. As long as I get paid.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Sorry about the venting.

This is where you vent,, glad you do,, don't beat yourself up.
Jeff :smile2:

 

[treeman75]

I get pissed off some times while working for other company's because I'm outside the loop. I wasn't hired to evaluate the tree I understand that, but it's frustrating being treated like a yahoo. I am not a business man, that is way I don't have my own company, but lots of owner operators are good business men, but don't know trees or have any desire to learn. More so then not when I work for a company I am told straight out, don't talk the the home owner, I know it's because I might make them look bad or trip them up on something. That is their business, and I respect that.
I just can't help to think I would be more valuable if they used me in an arborist position, and not just for my tree climbing skills. Ego's get in the way. Not everyone is like that either, There are some great guys out there too.
I'v worked up though the ranks, but to most who I'v known for many years, I am still just Wade the tree climber employee. No amount of school, or certs is going to change that, Sorry about the venting.

You should get into a company like Jeff and work your way up and you will get the respect your looking for. My guys know not to talk too much with the clients if the client has questions they say talk to Paul. My guys are friendly with the clients but they just dont talk business with them.

 

[Incomplete]

Key word is "lots of money". Means they probly got a good insurance policy and don't care if it falls on the house. Or they are in denial, what with saying "Been there 25 years" and all. People become attached to things. For no good reason.

Take your money, make a note in your Business Planner, and run.

 

[jefflovstrom]

You should get into a company like Jeff and work your way up and you will get the respect your looking for. My guys know not to talk too much with the clients if the client has questions they say talk to Paul. My guys are friendly with the clients but they just dont talk business with them.

That would be cool, but Beast is his own man.
Jeff :msp_wink:

 

[imagineero]

You seem to pop one like this up just about every week Beast, if it really causes you that much angst then you ought to go ahead and just run your own show. I think you'll find you're in much the same position helming the ship though; we're all slaves to the dollar. In fact, you'd probably be in a tougher position if you were the guy dealing with the customer!

If you want to keep your sanity and keep contract climbing, then try to keep the glass half full; very little equipment costs, no employees to worry about, and a stress free life. All you gotta do is turn up and climb. Enjoy the climbs, and take it easy. Smell the roses, enjoy the view. Smile more, and let things roll off your back. If the guy you're contracting to doesn't have the gear/staff, work slower. Two ears, one mouth. Keep your opinions to yourself, you'll have less stress that way.

You're getting paid to climb a tree, what could be better?

Shaun

 

[BC WetCoast]

As a tree risk assessor you have to look at three factors:
- likelihood of a failure
- size of the part that is likely to fail
- target

In this scenario, we are only concerning ourselves with the first factor as it is the whole tree that is a concern. So there are three types of whole tree failure:
- stem snapping
- hinge plate failure
- rotational failure
Given the existing lean, unless there is indications of internal rot we can't see on the photos, I would rule stem snap out.
A rotational failure is when the rootball stays intact but the soil around the rootball fails. These usually occur in saturated soils and often where there are changes in soil types such as a loamy soil sitting on top of an impervious clay layer.
A hinge plate failure is usually where the tree roots 'let go' from the soil holding them. Could be from saturated fine textured soils or could also be from root rot.

So here's what I would be looking at.
- soil types, fine textured (lots of clays and silts) or coarse textured more sands, gravels and cobbles. Roots anchor better to coarse textured soils than fine textured soils.
- is there bedrock that may be affecting rooting depth
- has the root mass been compromised in the past 6 years, ie construction, soil raising etc

If it is an Aleppo pine as Jeff suggests, then it naturally has a twisted form and the wood can withstand the lean. To me, lightening the canopy weight and ensuring the strength of the branch attachments would be a reasonable prescription.

I will put in a weasel clause however, that my opinion is based on the information provided.

 

[flushcut]

What I read in this story is everybody wants to milke the HO's of $$$ and kiss their ass. I have worked with a few rich people (read billions) and they really appreciate a straight forward answer, if you can talk to the powers that be and not just a bunch of "yes men" handlers.

 

[flushcut]

You did your job Beast.