Enforcing Safety

[BCMA]

I'm sure the arborist laying over in Harborview Medical Center right now with broken bones and a severed spinal cord would love to know how his work could have been done more safely.

There are other things that were not captured by picture such as the guy standing on his tippy toes with the saw extended one handed trying to cut limbs out of reach. A good recipe for driving that chainsaw down through his skull and killing him. I also saw that when the saw was too big to make small cuts, they literally broke the branches off by hand. No loppers or hand pruners. Their truck was an unmarked beat-up suburban with out of state license. No name or phone number to call. Never seen these guys in our little town of 30,000.

From the responses, I can see that most in our industry are going to sit idly by and let every hack continue to pull us to the bottom. It’s no wonder the public views tree services with suspicion.

 

[BCMA]

From OSHA:
I received the email and photos. The matter has been addressed with the Mall Manager and the contractor performing the work via an 'Non-Formal' complaint. It was reported that the alleged hazards in question had been addressed by our close of business yesterday.

Thank you for concerns regarding safety and health in the workplace.

Patrick T. Nies
Safety Compliance Officer
Occupational Safety & Health Administration

It looks like the problem has been solved. OSHA has done their job in a respectful manner. Hopefully, there will be better complience, and the tree care industry will be better viewed by the public because of it.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

BCMA wrote:

"We have good comradely among us as professional tree care providers."

That would be: "camaraderie." I hate to be a nitpicker, but you are, afterall, a BCMA, right?

I am a bit bothered by something others have mentioned, in here. Where, exactly, are you located? If you want to be some kind of tree-police guy, and I'm not against that, I believe you should have the balls to state your location. Otherwise, you honestly come off as some kind of devious weasel.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

OK, Tim, you're in Hayden, Idaho

Grace Tree Service, Inc.

Not sure why you chose the "Earth" location. With a population of around 13,000, how many tree services are there in your area? I guess I can understand acute paranoia about hacks when the pie is so small that you can only slice it a few times before there's not enough for anyone.

 

[Ed Roland]

Wrong!

The resistance is against snitches who's real gripe is that they didn't get the work!

:agree2:


BCMA, should we go back to the pictures you have posted here of your work and submit them to OSHA for safety infractions. Think we can find some? Think they can?
You have achieved BCMA status and that should set you apart from your competition ensuring business. Resorting to mob tactics is less than honorable.
i will think 2wice before posting pictures here on AS going forward.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

:agree2:


Should we go back to the pictures you have posted here of your work and submit them to OSHA for safety infractions. Think we can find some? Think they can?
You have achieved BCMA status and that should set you apart from your competition ensuring business. Resorting to mob tactics is less than honorable.
i will think 2wice before posting pictures here on AS going forward.

This gets interesting. I think posting pictures is a good idea. If something stands out as being wrong and/or out of (some) code, so be it. The poster has a learning experience. I do not think that the, "Ah-hah, GOTCHA!" mindset is a good one. Rather, if you (or I) are doing something incorrectly, and that gets pointed out, we're the better for it. OSHA is not very active in Austin, TX. I have been inspected on a job site, once, and never received any notice of violations. However, if I found that I was in violation, I'd want to know it so I could reach compliance. Regulations are not a bad thing if they make sense. If they don't, you get involved in the legislative process, something I did in my last life as a tattooist/body piercer. To present before a state legislative sub-committee and then see your proposal get turned into a law is very cool.

 

[Metals406]

Everyone that has posted in this thread, regularly violates OSHA Regulation on a daily/weekly basis. . . Should we have people driving around, taking pictures, and turning people in?

Perhaps we should install cameras in everyones homes as well? . . You know, for safety reasons. We don't want people being accountable for their own actions. . . We need to protect them from themselves. Cameras should be installed in peoples bedrooms as well--you know--in case they're doing stuff we don't agree with.

We should probably follow people around in vehicles, and turn them in to the Government for all their traffic transgressions. . . But it's for safety. I'm a bit concerned about people recreating on lakes' and waterways too. . . I'll go ahead and start taking pictures of their watercraft activities as well--of course--for safety.

Maybe I can earn some brownie points with the Powers that Be, and get a break on my taxes? Maybe an honorary badge for all the squealing I'll be doing? Maybe some frequent squealer miles?

You know what they say about inviting the Devil in? . . Good luck getting him back out.

 

[Curlycherry1]

:agree2:
Should we go back to the pictures you have posted here of your work and submit them to OSHA for safety infractions. Think we can find some? Think they can?

In his defense I think there is a difference between MINOR infractions for safety and GROSS displays of a disreguard of safety. It is one thing to miss something small, but when the dudes are working with chainsaws in sneakers and shorts, come on, that is a bit extreme.

Take this photo for example. Someone point out one thing this kid is doing that is safe, one thing:

Here is a partial list of things I can see right off the top:
No eye protection what so ever and he is about to go dicing and slicing where sticks will be flying towards his face.
No ear protection at all
No brain bucket, but not sure there is much to protect there anyway.
No work boots let alone steel toed shoes.
Shorts! I mean come on, if the branches do not scratch him all the heck one tiny slip of that saw and his leg is toast. Even jeans will at least slow down a saw a little (DAMHIKT).
And they have their oil next to their drinks. I know I am nit picking on that one but that is just not a good practice.

 

[senechal]

Metals, Your point is granted, but at the opposite extreme, operators left to police themselves from workplace injuries and deaths did such a good job of it that the government stepped in and we now have regulations intended as guidelines, but are regularly enforced with fines and shutdowns. Where's the disconnect? Common sense isn't all that common.

 

[silk]

Reading the replies of this post, I can see that there is a lot of resistance towards safety compliance. It indicates the sad state of the tree care industry.

From the responses, I can see that most in our industry are going to sit idly by and let every hack continue to pull us to the bottom. It’s no wonder the public views tree services with suspicion.

"Pulls up chair, opens a beer."

This ought to be good.

 

[clearance]

I suggest first starting with the ISA, seeing as how you are a member, and having them hold thier members to the standards they preach. Untill that outfit gets it together to keep any credibility, I think you should leave working people alone.:monkey:

BCMA, how about you start here, like I have suggested. Until the ISA starts to uphold its commandments, ie, no topping, trimming with spurs, by or for ISA certified supervisors, then ISA certification holds little weight.

 

[Metals406]

Metals, Your point is granted, but at the opposite extreme, operators left to police themselves from workplace injuries and deaths did such a good job of it that the government stepped in and we now have regulations intended as guidelines, but are regularly enforced with fines and shutdowns. Where's the disconnect? Common sense isn't all that common.

Good, then the dumb ones will weed themselves out. And what extreme? I wasn't extreme!? The dude is stopping whatever he's doing, and taking the time to sneak up on someone else to secretively photograph their activities. . . He then uses information he's collected to propagate his own agenda and inflated ego.

What he did is no different then him doing it to people in their homes, in their recreation, or anywhere they may be.

What happened 100 years ago when someone lost an arm drilling a gas well? And let's say they were working as safely as possible, but as we all know, accidents happen no matter the level of preparation.

Now this guy loses an arm. . . Did he sue the well owner? Did he turn the owner in for "unsafe work conditions"? Did he whine that the government wouldn't take care of him the rest of his life? Did he insist he DESERVED medical treatment on everyone else's dime?

Nope, he sucked it up. He knew his job had risk, and when he started his first day on the job he contractually assumed and accepted that risk. He consciously, and willfully took his own life in his own hands, and operated on his own accountability.

If you're unwilling to assume the risk of treework, work at McDonald's. . . If you're unwilling to assume the risk of driving, don't drive. If you're unwilling to assume the risk of smoking a cigarette or cigar, don't smoke.

I don't need a herd of do-gooder, self righteous douche-bags' running my life, telling me what I can and can't do, what I can and can't eat, and how often I breath!

This country/world is infested with ass-hats' that think they have a Right to take away the Rights of others.
:rant:

 

[treemandan]

I'll stand with Nels!

You don't hear BMCA complaining about people talking on cell phones while driving.....it's about the money!

but what about this:
Allright, I have been working with my ins with this guy, lets call him Josh Lord ( cause that's his name). A while back you might recall something about me walking off a job? Well that's him, been in this 30 years or so, drinks Canadian whiskey, got the shakes, totally worthess SOB, has no idea how to do it, what to charge or even if the kids he sends out will die while he sits in the fire station bar drinking cheap Canadian Whisky. Man, ever try the stuff?
So the two kids call me and practically beg me to come back so they have a job, so they can work. I sometime bring them out with me but nothing steady and I don't want to STEAL employees ( though I should but I can't keep them busy all year and don't really want the responsiblity for them)
Well Mr. Lord has got his old bucket, let me draw a picture:

1. birds live in the boom ( nice family, been there for some time)
2. the boom is cracked
3. the pedestal that holds the boom is cracked
4.the bearings in the turny thing for the boom are gone, well some of them
5. it leaks everywhere

Now the truck itself is kinda beat up but they drive it and chip into it and Josh is always telling me about " bucket jobs" he has to do and I say" Josh, I can't believe you keep dumping money into this thing, you can be serious." I might have even threatened to rat him out as well.
Jesse, the red head, he goes up in it, it don't have a tie in point even. But he goes up no saddle. In fact I tried to go up in it awhile ago but couldn't, just couldn't make myself.
I don't really care to much about Josh, I look at him like he is my agent who pays me. I made him go up in the thing last week, he was shaking all over and came down in a hurry. The guy should be put down if you know what I mean.
You know I often wonder how I could work with the guy and realized it cause I can. Me Jesse and John do it well and I have to say some of my barking is the reason. Soon I hope to have some hats on them but I swear I want to really hurt that guy Josh who supposes it just great to keep bidding on bucket jobs. Hell I just climbed three today with the thing sittin there when I could have easily just used it to tie in and Jesse is telling me about when he was in it last

 

[pdqdl]

... It is one thing to miss something small, but when the dudes are working with chainsaws in sneakers and shorts, come on, that is a bit extreme.

I can show you any number of threads proudly supported by professional climbers, showing guys climbing trees in full climbing harness wearing shorts while clearly running a chainsaw. Ohhh! That's right! It's ok to run a chainsaw without chaps while you are swinging around hanging from a rope. Clearly a much safer activity than standing on the ground or on top of a brush pile.

While it is a far cry from wearing chaps, I don't think shorts are the big issue here.

Let's face it guys. There is too much ambiguity in the application and enforcement of the rules. As has been pointed out previously, everybody that ever posted on this site has broken the rules, and the unsafe operators are always going to be present. Some folks think there should be more enforcement, others think there should be fewer rules.

I think OSHA writes up a fairly high standard of performance, which allows them to fine hell out of someone for not following the rules. Then they come take you out when there are employee complaints or on the job injuries. Until then, they seem to leave us mostly alone, which is how I prefer to keep it.

I had an on the job fatality, but I never heard a peep from OSHA, or any other regulatory agency. I was amazed to hear from you guys that had actually been visited on the job.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

BCMA, how about you start here, like I have suggested. Until the ISA starts to uphold its commandments, ie, no topping, trimming with spurs, by or for ISA certified supervisors, then ISA certification holds little weight.

The ISA members I know, most of them Certified Arborists, would not do the above-indicated practices. On what are you basing your charges? I suppose some members of any organization are going to deviate from the established standards every now and then, but I have found my fellow ISA members to be very conscientious in how they go about their business. While there may be a difference between ISA members and ISA Certified Arborists when it comes to upholding standards, without a reliable way to oversee the comings and goings of each and every member, it is impossible to substantiate assertions of 100% compliance or its opposite, so why bother? While we're at it, how the :censored: would ISA "uphold its commandments" anyway?

As for ISA certification holding little weight, you are wrong, plain and simple. I have gotten city, state and county gigs based solely on the fact that I'm an ISA Certified Arborist. You can argue until you're blue in the face but you will still be flat-out wrong. After doing some of these jobs I've gotten more work from these entities because I do excellent work, but the ISA certification got my foot in the door.

 

[blueatlascedar]

I can show you any number of threads proudly supported by professional climbers, showing guys climbing trees in full climbing harness wearing shorts while clearly running a chainsaw. Ohhh! That's right! It's ok to run a chainsaw without chaps while you are swinging around hanging from a rope. Clearly a much safer activity than standing on the ground or on top of a brush pile.

While it is a far cry from wearing chaps, I don't think shorts are the big issue here.

Let's face it guys. There is too much ambiguity in the application and enforcement of the rules. As has been pointed out previously, everybody that ever posted on this site has broken the rules, and the unsafe operators are always going to be present. Some folks think there should be more enforcement, others think there should be fewer rules.

I think OSHA writes up a fairly high standard of performance, which allows them to fine hell out of someone for not following the rules. Then they come take you out when there are employee complaints or on the job injuries. Until then, they seem to leave us mostly alone, which is how I prefer to keep it.

I had an on the job fatality, but I never heard a peep from OSHA, or any other regulatory agency. I was amazed to hear from you guys that had actually been visited on the job.

With my situation, the OSHA inspector was just driving down the highway towards the town I live in. He saw our signs along the road stating "Caution Treework Ahead" and figured, why not pop in and do a spot inspection. My attitude towards him wasn't as good as it could of been, but like I posted earlier, I was doing a tedious pruning in a very wide tree with lots of limb walking and was pissed I had to come out of the tree before finishing the work up there. My attitude may've contributed to his snotty attitude or maybe that was his MO.

 

[senechal]

And in these dark days before modern medicine available in remote jobsites, a simple complacent action would more often than not be a sentence to death. Lets not forget the complications of surviving an injury that renders you physically unable to work.

Your good old boys idealist view looks great on paper, but you ignore the good old boys still active in our industry that have seen the ways of old and new, and would more than likely say you are out of your mind for wishing upon their early days.

Now this guy loses an arm. . . Did he sue the well owner? Did he turn the owner in for "unsafe work conditions"? Did he whine that the government wouldn't take care of him the rest of his life? Did he insist he DESERVED medical treatment on everyone else's dime?

Nope, he sucked it up. He knew his job had risk, and when he started his first day on the job he contractually assumed and accepted that risk. He consciously, and willfully took his own life in his own hands, and operated on his own accountability.

 

[BRCCArborist]

I'm always hesitant to post in BCMA's threads. I can't tell if the guy means everything he says or if he is just baiting everyone to get a laugh. Some of the goofy stunts this guy pulls... i.e. taking pictures of a couple college kids working and posting them on the internet...I just can't picture an on the level guy doing.

Hey if tree work ever goes south, you could probably fit in well with the paparazzi.

 

[Tree Pig]

Go to this post on Crane Job

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=107047

He actaully posted pics with him or his guy cutting a big fir with a single tie in and one of his people running a saw mill with zero PPE on.


Hers a picture of his new house.

Hes out rounding up a bunch of new stones now.

 

[clearance]

The ISA members I know, most of them Certified Arborists, would not do the above-indicated practices. On what are you basing your charges? I suppose some members of any organization are going to deviate from the established standards every now and then, but I have found my fellow ISA members to be very conscientious in how they go about their business. While there may be a difference between ISA members and ISA Certified Arborists when it comes to upholding standards, without a reliable way to oversee the comings and goings of each and every member, it is impossible to substantiate assertions of 100% compliance or its opposite, so why bother? While we're at it, how the :censored: would ISA "uphold its commandments" anyway?

As for ISA certification holding little weight, you are wrong, plain and simple. I have gotten city, state and county gigs based solely on the fact that I'm an ISA Certified Arborist. You can argue until you're blue in the face but you will still be flat-out wrong. After doing some of these jobs I've gotten more work from these entities because I do excellent work, but the ISA certification got my foot in the door.

I have stated facts here many times, over the past few years, much of it supported by others here. Some of the facts lied about by a couple, but thats been forgiven by me. It is a fact that utility guys here climb with spurs to trim, with the full knowledge and often times direct observation by supervisors from the utility, who are all ISA certified, many threads here on that topic. As well as some municipal arborists, who are ISA certified, so, those are my facts.

And how would the ISA uphold it commandments-perhaps they could call up the utility and ask, uhhh, like for starters, like 'Do all your contractors men climb with spurs to trim',......sheesh, is it that hard, like a phonecall........

Maybe ask our buddy Mr. Tom Dunlap, I am sure he would love to have this talk again..not.

Anyways Sunrise, I have listened to your views here, never have you offended me, and you are most likely a good climber, so, I have no problem with you at all, hope I have answered your question.