Enforcing Safety

[fishercat]

i didn't climb down for the USDA in Woosta Mass last winter.

I don't blame you for getting pissed off. Honestly, I don't think I would of come down until I was finished with the job regardless of what he threatened or did. I would of probably lost it, if he couldn't wait and come back later. I owned a semi for 5 years and one trip from Kansas City to San Fransisco I had 4 level 1 inspections where they completely go thru your truck. On the 4th inspection outside of Reno I completely lost it, threw the keys outside the truck and told him just to keep the truck and throw me in jail if it made DOT happy. Luckily after things calmed down he understood my frustration of being inspected 4 times in one trip, and let me go.

i tried calling the idiots for three days.not my fault the only had one phone line.
he shows up on thursday at 3:45 PM telling me i have to be at a mandatory meeting at 5pm across town.he yelled all this to me while i was up in a hickory.

he asked me to come down when he got there.i told him if he wanted to talk to me he had to climb his lazy cheese eating ass up the tree.he didn't come up the tree and i didn't go to their silly meeting.i downloaded all the info i needed online monday night.

don't let these punks push you around,they are just trying to relive their elementary school safety patrol days.it's all intimidation and i don't get intimidated.

 

[senechal]

The ideological argument is moot, because nowadays you are indeed a liability to your colleagues, coworkers, customers, operator, crew and family if you are working unsafe. A big strong work ethic doesn't say much when a person is on life support.

I appreciate the formatting to clarify points of emphasis including my own

My Great-Grandfather would say we live in the dark days. He would chose to lose an arm, rather than have some schmuck take his picture, and turn him in to some bloated, corrupt Government controlled agency. In fact, that would have been grounds for a royal ass-whoopin' in the days when men were steel and ships were wood.

BTW, he lost a finger to a circular mill. . . No lawsuit, no whining, no claim that the saw manufacturer made a dangerous product. And we know that life never has 'complications', and we should all be big wussies that shouldn't drink hot coffee, cause it might spill on our laps.

I can't tell you how many times I got injured working in construction. . . Never once did I make a big deal out of it, or go to the doctor. I accepted that it could be dangerous work, and so there was no surprises.

You want to know why comp rates are high, insurance rates are high, and all the other stuff we have to carry to protect our rears? It isn't the guys working under the table, or without insurance, or for less than everyone else. . . It's the babies that cry to momma, and want a free lunch. "I got a sliver at work--I want 6 weeks off, paid, to heal. . . And a settlement for my mental anguish."

Or it's just dishonest wastes of skin, that want a free ride. . . So they fabricate or exaggerate an injury. It's a bunch of crap.

Many times I've helped someone out, and they were worried about liability. You know what I told them? 'If I get hurt bad, drag me into the woods and let the critters have me." No lawsuit, no complaining that life isn't fair, or that I deserve free Medical Care, or that my safety was anyones responsibility but my own.

If you haven't noticed, life can be dangerous. . . There's a 1:1 chance that you will die. People need to get over it, and Man Up!

 

[Tree Pig]

The ideological argument is moot, because nowadays you are indeed a liability to your colleagues, coworkers, customers, operator, crew and family if you are working unsafe. A big strong work ethic doesn't say much when a person is on life support.

I appreciate the formatting to clarify points of emphasis including my own

The differance is you already live in a socialist country, we are trying to fight from becoming one, its the principals our country was founded on, through blood sweat and tears. Canadians just kinda showed up one day and said... Hi we are Canadians and went on accepting whatever comes their way after that

 

[senechal]

hahahaha. Ignorance is bliss.

 

[Tree Pig]

hahahaha. Ignorance is bliss.

Thats why I am trying to enlighten you a little.

 

[senechal]

Thanks muffin

 

[Greystoke]

:agree2: Well said. I'll be with you on that day.

:agree2:Count me in!

 

[Metals406]

The ideological argument is moot, because nowadays you are indeed a liability to your colleagues, coworkers, customers, operator, crew and family if you are working unsafe. A big strong work ethic doesn't say much when a person is on life support.

I appreciate the formatting to clarify points of emphasis including my own

What's your point again?

Of course working like an idiot is a liability. . . Tough cookies. Get over it, move along, nothing to see here. If you don't want to work around a fool--then leave. By who's standards must everyone adhere to be considered "Safe"?? Who gave you a badge to regulate people?

Hell, we can't even get treemen to agree about knots and climbing technique on this site, let alone the country!! So by what measure do we condemn others? Do you get to decide, or maybe Politicians that have no experience doing physical labor? They do an awful good job armchair-quarterbacking with everything else. . . Oh wait--no they don't.

And it's the lack of (more fancy underlining for ya) work ethic that's the problem. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what those two young guys were doing in the OP's pictures. . . If you don't agree with the way they work--don't stick your nose in their business--and don't watch them.

Did they die doing the work? . . Perhaps they maimed a baby? No? That's right, nothing happened. Would you rather they sit on their butts and be wards of the state? Maybe sit at home and smoke some weed they bought by trading Food Stamps?

At least they were working! Perhaps the OP could have approached them, and enlightened them on proper PPE and cutting safety? . . Instead, he takes pictures of their "naughties", and turns it in to the Principle. What they were doing was none of his business.

I know it's hard for some people to let everyone else run their own lives--it's a control thing--I get it. It's like Obama asking people to turn their neighbors in. . . We don't want that Nanny-State crap here, so leave it up North eh?

 

[Sciuropterus]

Thats why I am trying to enlighten you a little.

Stihl-O-Matic, I like your quote about deer hunting without an accordion, but you got the wrong guy saying it. It was spoken by Jed Babbin, he was an undersecretary of defense in 2003.

Details here:

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/babbin.asp

 

[senechal]

I... I think it was about safety regulations. Somewhere in between the initial photos and the usual political remarks about Europe and Canada, I found a beer in the fridge and put on southpark. Mmmmm.

What's your point again?

 

[Tree Pig]

Stihl-O-Matic, I like your quote about deer hunting without an accordion, but you got the wrong guy saying it. It was spoken by Jed Babbin, he was an undersecretary of defense in 2003.

Details here:

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/babbin.asp

Thanks for the tip, I am not sure who said it first I do know Storman Norman is quoted on numerous websites for having said it and frankly no one really remembers or cares much about anything Babbin ever said. I would be willing to bet that since Babbin said it Norman has repeated at least once. So I guess I am quoting someone else hearing Norman repeat something he heard Babbin say. But thats way to much to put in my SIG

 

[treeseer]

"we can't even get treemen to agree about knots and climbing technique on this site, let alone the country!! So by what measure do we condemn others? "

Uh, sir, what does climbing style have to do with safety? Focus. Topic.

"There is absolutely nothing wrong with what those two young guys were doing in the OP's pictures."

Nothing wrong? Are you familiar with the tree business at all?

 

[Curlycherry1]

Thanks for the tip, I am not sure who said it first I do know Storman Norman is quoted on numerous websites for having said it and frankly no one really remembers or cares much about anything Babbin ever said. I would be willing to bet that since Babbin said it Norman has repeated at least once. So I guess I am quoting someone else hearing Norman repeat something he heard Babbin say. But thats way to much to put in my SIG

Just to stir up a little more trouble (sorry I cannot help myself, and this thread is on quite a roll). Based on the snopes reference you can be damn sure who said it first. But, so are you saying that presented with the facts of who spoke those words you are going to continue to misrepresent them and deny credit to the true author of those words? I just wanna be clear here. oke:

 

[Tree Pig]

Just to stir up a little more trouble (sorry I cannot help myself, and this thread is on quite a roll). Based on the snopes reference you can be damn sure who said it first. But, so are you saying that presented with the facts of who spoke those words you are going to continue to misrepresent them and deny credit to the true author of those words? I just wanna be clear here. oke:

I think what I am saying is thanks for your input but it really has little to do with this thread and I will take under consideration and maybe eventually get to the bottom of it.

EDIT Here just for you I fixed my sig... Happy?

 

[Tree Pig]

Based on the snopes reference you can be damn sure who said it first. . oke:

But just to Clearify one thing just because someone wrote in an HTML file and posted it on a webserver doesnt make it fact.

If you want I can make you the president of Kyrgyzstan and attribute it to you with all kinda of other cool stories in about 30 mins have it up and running on a website for you.

 

[Metals406]

"we can't even get treemen to agree about knots and climbing technique on this site, let alone the country!! So by what measure do we condemn others? "

Uh, sir, what does climbing style have to do with safety? Focus. Topic.

"There is absolutely nothing wrong with what those two young guys were doing in the OP's pictures."

Nothing wrong? Are you familiar with the tree business at all?

What does climbing style have to do with safety? . . You tell me. Look at all the threads where one guy says you must double tie in, then another says it's a must to have a steel-core flipline, then another says one bend is unsafe but another will be safer, then one says he climbs and cuts in shorts, and another says that's unacceptable.

Plenty of focus and on-topic here.

And there wasn't anything wrong with what those guys were doing. . . Your way isn't the only way--there's 1000 ways to skin a cat. Who was injured in those pics? What property damage was done? What heinous crime was committed? Those two made enough dough to make it through another day in this jacked-up economy, and probably brought dinner home for the family.

 

[newsawtooth]

Safety

Whether you agree with what BCMA did or not, is beside the point. As industries evolve, the culture of safety evolves at great cost, both physically to employees and economically. OSHA rules for logging operations which arboriculture falls under, were developed in response to fatalities or patterns of serious injury. Sure, those two gentlemen may be earning a living, but at what cost? To disregard established safe working practices is short sighted. Their $9 or $10 an hour will do little to offset the average cost of a saw injury. Then where are they? To compare what they are doing to conditions 100 years ago whilst claiming that your forefathers would prefer losing a limb is irrelevant and disingenuous. I cannot pretend to understand what is in another man's heart, but I suspect they would prefer to be intact in order to provide for their families.

OSHA has had some trouble with the Tree Industry. They tried to lump us in with logging operations, but it became clear that we don't quite fit there. As of right now, they are not issuing citations for certain violations. "...Until these discussions have produced further resolution of the compliance issues affecting arborists, citations for violations of 1910.266 shall not be issued to employers in SIC 0783 who are not engaged in logging operations". From http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=25041.

If you are worried about citations, familiarize yourself with their laws and who is capable of issuing citations. Don't act like a victim of government rules that are for the protection of employees. I don't really understand how someone can defend improperly training employees and not providing them with the appropriate PPE to keep them productive. The alternative is simply a poor business decision.

Brent Jenkins
Denver, CO

 

[senechal]

Plenty of focus and on-topic here.

Not exactly. Hyperbole is certainly your forté though.

 

[Metals406]

Whether you agree with what BCMA did or not, is beside the point. As industries evolve, the culture of safety evolves at great cost, both physically to employees and economically. OSHA rules for logging operations which arboriculture falls under, were developed in response to fatalities or patterns of serious injury. Sure, those two gentlemen may be earning a living, but at what cost? To disregard established safe working practices is short sighted. Their $9 or $10 an hour will do little to offset the average cost of a saw injury. Then where are they? To compare what they are doing to conditions 100 years ago whilst claiming that your forefathers would prefer losing a limb is irrelevant and disingenuous. I cannot pretend to understand what is in another man's heart, but I suspect they would prefer to be intact in order to provide for their families.

OSHA has had some trouble with the Tree Industry. They tried to lump us in with logging operations, but it became clear that we don't quite fit there. As of right now, they are not issuing citations for certain violations. "...Until these discussions have produced further resolution of the compliance issues affecting arborists, citations for violations of 1910.266 shall not be issued to employers in SIC 0783 who are not engaged in logging operations". From http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=25041.

If you are worried about citations, familiarize yourself with their laws and who is capable of issuing citations. Don't act like a victim of government rules that are for the protection of employees. I don't really understand how someone can defend improperly training employees and not providing them with the appropriate PPE to keep them productive. The alternative is simply a poor business decision.

Brent Jenkins
Denver, CO

Not exactly. Hyperbole is certainly your forté though.

You guys are right. . . I'm totally going to run around tomorrow, and turn a bunch of people in to the proper authorities. . . It'll be a hoot!

 

[TimberMcPherson]

My OSH visit

Yesterday I had my second visit in a month from our version of OSHA.

Amongst other things this is what he checked. (gear)

Saftey features on chainsaws (brake, throttle lock, off switch, brake, mufflers, chain catcher peg, av in good cond and chainsaw mits fitted to all ground saws.
Helmets were certified for use and were no older than 3 years if a plastic hard hat and 5 years if a petzl type unit. Muffs at least class 4 and in good cond.
Chainsaw pants and chaps worn, steel cap boots and safety glasses
Harnesses of standard with date of make and no older than 10 years.
Ropes and prussics in good cond
3 way locking get biners used in all lifeline situations. others are only for gear and rigging.
First aid kits available and well stocked

Background stuff they checked that I remember

First aid qualifications
At least 2 people on site able to do ariel rescue
Anyone operating saws qualified and using them properly.

Aside from one saw not having a mitt and one of my guys cutting without his thumb wrapped around the handle and cutting above his shoulder, he was happy with our operation but I have to get more of our safety and training stuff down in writing.

Im happy because I know I have proof that I am putting in place the equipment and systems to look after those who work for me. They know I value there safety and they act accordingly. Im not making the job safe, but I am making it safer. Another company that thought it was "safe" got a close down with 27 violations. Hey doesnt everyone think they are a good driver?

I think if your a lone wolf tree worker then your free to do what you like safety wise. BUT the minute you employ someone YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THERE SAFETY IF THEY ARE DOING YOUR BIDDING. You ask them to do inherently dangerous tasks, you train them, gude them and equip them.

If they get badly hurt and it can be attributed to your lack of equipment, training or guidance. You deserve to be closed down and loose your right to employ guys.

You cant stop guys from being idiots but if you have seen the same $10 an hour college kid clearing the chuck and duck using his foot a couple times and done nothing about it, if he goes through the third time, its not his fault he didnt know better, its yours for not correcting and training him. YOUR the one that knows better. If he does it after you have warned him, well maybe darwin has a prize he deserves.
Just like the guys in the pic, they probably dont know better because there miserable, ignorant hack of a boss hasnt done HIS job to train and supply OR hes unfit for a leadership/employer role in our professional industry.

Part of the problem is that guys often dont know that they are doing wrong or feel no motivation to do the right thing. This is why OSHA is so important. They set guidelines for the industry based on considered study and then police them.

Here the DOL (department of labour/OSH) has run meetings with arborists, then notified site visits, and then they start policing.

If you do treework for yourself without the right gear or background, then your just a hack, if you have other guys helping you, your being an irresponsible gutless hack who wont man up to your responsiblities to your men and their families.

Providing the right gear and training does cost, but in the end its a golden investment.