Escape route feedback

[48"BAR PINCHER]

GOL teaches a MINIMUM of 15 feet from the stump after cutting the trigger before the tree impacts the ground on preferably a 45degree angle on the safe side of the tree. This is a great guidline but obviously is not always possible. Some trees only have a side that is not as dangerous as the rest but none safe! They came up with this distance by using insurance co statistics that showed that approximately 90% of all felling accidents occur within 10 feet of the stump. When you bore cut and use a trigger there is usually no need to run but a good fast walk sideways while watching the tree on a predetermined and cleared escape route works for me. Ditto whoever commented on the collateral shrapnel that get dropped by neighboring trees. That is often the more dangerous stuff than the tree you are felling.
I'll quietly stand by for a bit while you west coasties throw a GOL ####storm at me

 

[Gologit]

GOL teaches...

I'll quietly stand by for a bit while you west coasties throw a GOL ####storm at me

Hey, no problem. Nobody out here takes GOL seriously anyway. Most of us who make our living in the woods recognize the fact that GOL only impresses people who don't know any better.

That being said I'll admit that GOL has some good information and ideas. They're just not applicable to any kind of real world situation that we might deal with .

GOL is a great tool for someone with little or no practical experience, a total and unquestioning trust that the application of certain techniques will always and without fail produce the desired results, the ability to dismiss without examination any other methods than those taught by GOL, and to look upon those of us who choose not to believe in the teachings of GOL as some kind of unwashed heathen. GOL devotees tend to get all glassy eyed and speak in hushed and reverent monotones when discussing their teachings and their beliefs.
You know...kinda like Jehova's Witnesses with chainsaws.

Couple all of that with the tendency to over-think even the simplest of tasks, a very limited methodology, the herd instinct of a lemming, and you have the perfect candidate for a GOL course.

But, like I said, that's okay. Those of us who know what we're doing are used to those that don't.

 

[LumberjkChamp]

Hey, no problem. Nobody out here takes GOL seriously anyway. Most of us who make our living in the woods recognize the fact that GOL only impresses people who don't know any better.

That being said I'll admit that GOL has some good information and ideas. They're just not applicable to any kind of real world situation that we might deal with .

GOL is a great tool for someone with little or no practical experience, a total and unquestioning trust that the application of certain techniques will always and without fail produce the desired results, the ability to dismiss without examination any other methods than those taught by GOL, and to look upon those of us who choose not to believe in the teachings of GOL as some kind of unwashed heathen. GOL devotees tend to get all glassy eyed and speak in hushed and reverent monotones when discussing their teachings and their beliefs.
You know...kinda like Jehova's Witnesses with chainsaws.

Couple all of that with the tendency to over-think even the simplest of tasks, a very limited methodology, the herd instinct of a lemming, and you have the perfect candidate for a GOL course.

But, like I said, that's okay. Those of us who know what we're doing are used to those that don't.

Great post. Very well articulated. Got some rep. coming your way for it.

I do, however, have a question. Is GOL a good course to learn basic saw handling skills? I have heard about and done some limited reading on GOL and I think like you mentioned in your post it may be geared more toward the person with limited to no experience in the woods. Can you elaborate more on your opinion of GOL's basic power saw handling practices?

 

[Gologit]

Lumberjkchamp...Now you've done it...you've forced me to say something nice about GOL.

From what I understand from having talked to people who've taken the course, their safety training is really pretty good. Apparently they place a real emphasis on safe saw handling...as they should. They're big on PPE and that's another plus.

Too many people just go buy a saw and start cutting. Some of them get away with it. The others get stitches, a prosthetic device, or a memorial service.

If a person doesn't have the chance to work with an experienced hand in the woods I'd say that some kind of formal safety training would be a good idea. GOL might be the only option for some people. If nothing else it might teach a beginner how not to hurt himself with a saw.

But look at it the same way as when you learned to ride a bike...at first you use the training wheels. Later on on, when you get your balance, you can make up your own mind how to ride.

 

[hammerlogging]

Lumberjkchamp...Now you've done it...you've forced me to say something nice about GOL.

From what I understand from having talked to people who've taken the course, their safety training is really pretty good. Apparently they place a real emphasis on safe saw handling...as they should. They're big on PPE and that's another plus.

Too many people just go buy a saw and start cutting. Some of them get away with it. The others get stitches, a prosthetic device, or a memorial service.

If a person doesn't have the chance to work with an experienced hand in the woods I'd say that some kind of formal safety training would be a good idea. GOL might be the only option for some people. If nothing else it might teach a beginner how not to hurt himself with a saw.

But look at it the same way as when you learned to ride a bike...at first you use the training wheels. Later on on, when you get your balance, you can make up your own mind how to ride.

Exactly.

 

[forestryworks]

They don't teach looking up a whole lot. You have to look up to know what is going on.

 

[Gypo Logger]

You guys out there chopping large wood with no helmet....I can't abide not wearing a mellon protector.

Hello Oldtimer, most guys wear hardhats because they'd get fired if they didn't.
That doesn't mean the oldtimers wear wrong or indifferent because they didn't.
They just weren't in vogue then.
Ironicly I can't go anywhere without a seatbelt.
Injuries aren't caused by the lack of hardhats anymore than headaches are caused by the lack of aspirin.
At least if I get hit on the head I won't hear it because of my stupid looking hearing protection. Lol
Gypo

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[48"BAR PINCHER]

Cool. I stood by a little while. Unfortunately you GOL nay sayers are not only flat out 100% wrong but folks that want to cut wood for a living and live for a long time to tell about it do follow their general practices. Not saying here that all of you nay sayers are wrong....just most of you. I used to cut like most do for years then I wised up. Second you are all completely off base here slamming GOL and are taking the original question of this thread to a borderline hijack. The question was about how far to get away from the stump roughly. Not how to slam GOL and not answer the man's question. Third is several states require some form of this kind of training for their own employees and company w/c insurance policies. Fourth is most colleges that currently teach logging practices (Paul Smith's, Univ of Wisc, to name 2) base alot of their cirriculum around GOL practices. If you all are so worried that it's for j-off novices and happy homeowners, maybe you should let these schools and GOL know that they are all stupid and unsafe for teaching your future helpers and employees such ridiculous, wasteful, unproductive, unsafe habits to this generation and a few to come and you all should be hired on immediately as professors to teach them the right way to do things.
Now that I hijacked this thread myself, I'll let the ####storm continue:yoyo:

 

[Gypo Logger]

I don't think they are bashing GOL as such, they are just indicating that GOL is nothing more than a primer. It's hard won experience that makes a faller.
However, it's frustrating to see someone freshly emerge from a timber felling workshop that they paid good money for and they assume their a "faller".
Most naysayers are looking at this GOL from a professional point of view.
I suspect that most GOL graduates don't even get a job in the woods and just want to work in their own woodlot and there is nothing wrong with that.
As soon as I see someone do the "nutcracker" start, you can tell they went to GOL or read a book. Lol
John

 

[forestryworks]

I don't think they are bashing GOL as such, they are just indicating that GOL is nothing more than a primer. It's hard won experience that makes a faller.
However, it's frustrating to see someone freshly emerge from a timber felling workshop that they paid good money for and they assume their a "faller".
Most naysayers are looking at this GOL from a professional point of view.
I suspect that most GOL graduates don't even get a job in the woods and just want to work in their own woodlot and there is nothing wrong with that.
As soon as I see someone do the "nutcracker" start, you can tell they went to GOL or read a book. Lol
John

I'm out of rep, but good post John.

 

[teatersroad]

Cool. I stood by a little while. Unfortunately you GOL nay sayers are not only flat out 100% wrong but folks that want to cut wood for a living and live for a long time to tell about it do follow their general practices. Not saying here that all of you nay sayers are wrong....just most of you. I used to cut like most do for years then I wised up. Second you are all completely off base here slamming GOL and are taking the original question of this thread to a borderline hijack. The question was about how far to get away from the stump roughly. Not how to slam GOL and not answer the man's question. Third is several states require some form of this kind of training for their own employees and company w/c insurance policies. Fourth is most colleges that currently teach logging practices (Paul Smith's, Univ of Wisc, to name 2) base alot of their cirriculum around GOL practices. If you all are so worried that it's for j-off novices and happy homeowners, maybe you should let these schools and GOL know that they are all stupid and unsafe for teaching your future helpers and employees such ridiculous, wasteful, unproductive, unsafe habits to this generation and a few to come and you all should be hired on immediately as professors to teach them the right way to do things.
Now that I hijacked this thread myself, I'll let the ####storm continue:yoyo:

do you cut in that wind?

 

[Gologit]

... If you all are so worried that it's for j-off novices and happy homeowners, maybe you should let these schools and GOL know that they are all stupid and unsafe for teaching your future helpers and employees such ridiculous, wasteful, unproductive, unsafe habits to this generation and

A couple of years ago I was opening up roads and waterhole access on a fire. We were getting clobbered and I needed some help fast so I borrowed a couple of guys from a thinning crew that was camped nearby. Their foreman told me they were the best two fallers he had and that they'd both had the entire GOL course and some college classes besides.

If what they showed me that day was an example of what GOL teaches in the way of cutting techniques I hope to never see it again. It was a straight chop and drop, lay didn't matter...neither did lead. We were just pushing the stuff off the side of the road so the water tankers could get in.
My two GOL guys started out badly and stayed that way most of the morning. They were either hung up, broke down, complaining about the steep ground and brush, falling down and whining about it, out of gas in the back cut, or falling stuff on each other. I told them to stay two tree lengths apart and one of them wanted to know where the measuring tape was. I was spending more time cutting them out than I was on my own stuff. I gave them a quicky class in the Humboldt face but they still went back to bore cutting when they had a chance. And slow? You never saw slow like those two guys.
We got a little break about noon and I took them back to their camp. I told their foreman if that was the best they had I felt darn sorry for him. I raided a convict crew and got a couple of their guys to help me finish the day. They'd learned to cut from the guards and the other convicts and they did a fine job.

So...if I had depend on future GOL and college students for employees I'd probably give them a good leaving alone. They know a lot I guess...but they're useless in the woods unless they've had some real world practical experience.

The "I know what I'm doing 'cause I got a piece of paper that says so" attitude doesn't make it in the woods. Never has. Never will.

 

[Gypo Logger]

A couple of years ago I was opening up roads and waterhole access on a fire. We were getting clobbered and I needed some help fast so I borrowed a couple of guys from a thinning crew that was camped nearby. Their foreman told me they were the best two fallers he had and that they'd both had the entire GOL course and some college classes besides.

If what they showed me that day was an example of what GOL teaches in the way of cutting techniques I hope to never see it again. It was a straight chop and drop, lay didn't matter...neither did lead. We were just pushing the stuff off the side of the road so the water tankers could get in.
My two GOL guys started out badly and stayed that way most of the morning. They were either hung up, broke down, complaining about the steep ground and brush, falling down and whining about it, out of gas in the back cut, or falling stuff on each other. I told them to stay two tree lengths apart and one of them wanted to know where the measuring tape was. I was spending more time cutting them out than I was on my own stuff. I gave them a quicky class in the Humboldt face but they still went back to bore cutting when they had a chance. And slow? You never saw slow like those two guys.
We got a little break about noon and I took them back to their camp. I told their foreman if that was the best they had I felt darn sorry for him. I raided a convict crew and got a couple of their guys to help me finish the day. They'd learned to cut from the guards and the other convicts and they did a fine job.

So...if I had depend on future GOL and college students for employees I'd probably give them a good leaving alone. They know a lot I guess...but they're useless in the woods unless they've had some real world practical experience.

The "I know what I'm doing 'cause I got a piece of paper that says so" attitude doesn't make it in the woods. Never has. Never will.

Good post and right on the money.
Can you imagine my frustration when I was hired on a road widening crew with 2 "certified fallers". They both thought their chit didn't stink and that I was there to pack their gas and limb their trees.
The first faller was getting 64 $/hr, the second faller was getting 48$/hr, I was getting 24$, because I wasn't certified. These so called fallers used every excuse in the book not to work, their favourite being the wind was too strong.
I was humble at first, but when they tried to boss me around, I told them to go sit on a stump and I'd do the whole job alone. BTW they were afraid of my 372 and prefered their limp wristed 365's with 28" bars. They even asked me how to file!
The safety chit was over the top and after I dumped many trees the big honcho safety guy came around and said because I wasn't certified I couldn't cut anything bigger than 6" dia. Both these guys got fired for various reasons.
If a guys any ####### good he's workin for himself.
So the jokes on me, had I gone to GOL and graduated, then I'd be the mang and getting the 64$/hr. So who's stupid, me or the GOL graduate?
John

 

[FSburt]

Alright I can't stand it just lurking in this thread with out putting my 2cents. I am a student of the watch the top as you move along your escape route. I have had 2 close calls with crap coming at me from above. 1st one was when I worked up north out of Orleans and we were cutting on a cable block falling hardwoods as prep before burning. Well I am cutting on a wonderfull tree called a chinquapin which was forked up about 50 feet. Well I am standing on slash that is over 5 feet deep and was perched on a couple of logs while I cut the tree, I fell the tree with the fork and low and behold one of the tops peels back and starts heading down at me. While trying to escape I fall in hole in the slash and fall back and am staring at this top headed right at me and there is nothing I could do as I was stuck to my waist in slash,the creator was looking out for me that day as I should have died but the top fell over the top of me and since I was kinda underneath the slash a bit I survived. Episode #2 was down on the Sierra where I work now I was falling fire killed pine for planting site prep and was falling this 35" dbh pine up out of the drainage. I was kinda in a quick sand type mud bogg so I standing on some limbs to help keep me from sinking in the mud and as the tree went over the lowest large limb caught a dead live oak and bent it over and threw the limb back at me. As I was escaping I took my eyes off the tree so I could see the easy areas to not get bogged down in, when I got away I turned back and bam that limb put the hurt to me right in the chest and face. Well I probably would have died again had this limb been from a green tree and heavy but since the tree was dead over 2 yrs I got a bruised chest out it. I like to see what is coming at me and always try to watch the top as am escaping. Just seen too many close calls with others that I cannot bring myself not to look.
Check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7frdBq-4v0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEpr7KuzIDI

 

[Gypo Logger]

Most of the time when a fatality, injury or close call happens, there is not enough known about the emotional state of the victim.
Since only one thought can occupy the mind at any one time, it's hard to say what the victim was thinking about when the casualty happened.
Falling timber is a very intimate and enjoyable experience, but if the operators mind is on other things, like marital problems, financial problems or simply being pushed or ridiculed by other crew members, this can substantialy stack the deck.
Of the eight lost time injuries I've had in the woods, most of them could be attributed to my mental state, something that is rarely talked about. So I think 50% of injuries are directly related to experience and the other 50% are related to mental state, or any combination thereof.
They're coming to take me away Haha!
John

 

[coastalfaller]

Hey, no problem. Nobody out here takes GOL seriously anyway. Most of us who make our living in the woods recognize the fact that GOL only impresses people who don't know any better.

That being said I'll admit that GOL has some good information and ideas. They're just not applicable to any kind of real world situation that we might deal with .

GOL is a great tool for someone with little or no practical experience, a total and unquestioning trust that the application of certain techniques will always and without fail produce the desired results, the ability to dismiss without examination any other methods than those taught by GOL, and to look upon those of us who choose not to believe in the teachings of GOL as some kind of unwashed heathen. GOL devotees tend to get all glassy eyed and speak in hushed and reverent monotones when discussing their teachings and their beliefs.
You know...kinda like Jehova's Witnesses with chainsaws.

Couple all of that with the tendency to over-think even the simplest of tasks, a very limited methodology, the herd instinct of a lemming, and you have the perfect candidate for a GOL course.

But, like I said, that's okay. Those of us who know what we're doing are used to those that don't.

Very well said! Tried to rep you, but alas, I have to spread some around first!

 

[coastalfaller]

Most of the time when a fatality, injury or close call happens, there is not enough known about the emotional state of the victim.
Since only one thought can occupy the mind at any one time, it's hard to say what the victim was thinking about when the casualty happened.
Falling timber is a very intimate and enjoyable experience, but if the operators mind is on other things, like marital problems, financial problems or simply being pushed or ridiculed by other crew members, this can substantialy stack the deck.
Of the eight lost time injuries I've had in the woods, most of them could be attributed to my mental state, something that is rarely talked about. So I think 50% of injuries are directly related to experience and the other 50% are related to mental state, or any combination thereof.
They're coming to take me away Haha!
John

Bang on there, John.
Great thread, though, some really good posts in here. Keep it up.

 

[coastalfaller]

I don't think they are bashing GOL as such, they are just indicating that GOL is nothing more than a primer. It's hard won experience that makes a faller.
However, it's frustrating to see someone freshly emerge from a timber felling workshop that they paid good money for and they assume their a "faller".
Most naysayers are looking at this GOL from a professional point of view.
I suspect that most GOL graduates don't even get a job in the woods and just want to work in their own woodlot and there is nothing wrong with that.
As soon as I see someone do the "nutcracker" start, you can tell they went to GOL or read a book. Lol
John

Very well said again. Here in BC, fallers have to be "certified" to fall timber now. We also used to be able to break in guys who we thought might make good fallers. Now because of a few guys taking extreme liberties in the breaking in of new guys we are all forced to choose from a pool of freshly minted fallers out of a month long course.

Much the same as what you're saying, John, alot of these guys come out of this month long course with that attitude that "now I'm a faller and I'm worth full rate!" I've yet to see one that's worth full rate right away. Don't get me wrong, some will be excellent fallers some day. But that's the key, "some day".

I had one guy demanding full rate, saying he was now certified. I took him out with me and watched. I'll spare you the painful details, but needless to say, it didn't go well. He had his panties in a bunch insisting he's certified and therefore should make full rate. I told him that all that meant was that now he's certified to actually start learning the ropes. He didn't like that and left. I heard he tried a few other outfits and has now left the industry. Too bad really. If he would have been able to keep his ego in check he might have turned out to be a decent faller.

 

[Gypo Logger]

Very well said again. Here in BC, fallers have to be "certified" to fall timber now. We also used to be able to break in guys who we thought might make good fallers. Now because of a few guys taking extreme liberties in the breaking in of new guys we are all forced to choose from a pool of freshly minted fallers out of a month long course.

Much the same as what you're saying, John, alot of these guys come out of this month long course with that attitude that "now I'm a faller and I'm worth full rate!" I've yet to see one that's worth full rate right away. Don't get me wrong, some will be excellent fallers some day. But that's the key, "some day".

I had one guy demanding full rate, saying he was now certified. I took him out with me and watched. I'll spare you the painful details, but needless to say, it didn't go well. He had his panties in a bunch insisting he's certified and therefore should make full rate. I told him that all that meant was that now he's certified to actually start learning the ropes. He didn't like that and left. I heard he tried a few other outfits and has now left the industry. Too bad really. If he would have been able to keep his ego in check he might have turned out to be a decent faller.

Good post, it's the doctorite that must be the undoing. Just like the Wizard of Oz and the Cowardly Lion.
I'm so glad I didn't GOL, I probably would have never gotten over myself. Lol
If you need any fallers down there, I'm game and I'll work and shut my mouth, as I need a job badly now, as firewood quite ain't cutting it here in the north. It would be a slice, even if I don't pan out but I'm low maintanance.
But if I do pan out, maybe I can get the certification they said they would grandfather.
And BTW, I will wear chaps and hardhat.
Thanks,
John

 

[chappy2100]

yukonsawman, that tree sure looked to come down fast. I try to cut really slow and delicate when I am finishing cutting and look up, as soon as I see the tree start to lean I stop cutting and start my escape. I sometimes even stop cutting and wait a few seconds to see if it is doing something it shouldn't be doing. This gives me a little more time to get away to a safe spot.

i agree... if you finish your cut slow enough you should have plenty of time to take a few steps back and watcher go.. gettin too hot and quick in the sticks is how you get hurt