Ethanol in our gas. Are our saws okay?

[Woodie]

For what it's worth, I just got my Jred 2159 last night, and there was a paper insert added to the instruction booklet that said absolutely no ethanol in the saw.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Did it say why?
If I made a saw I'd say do not put gas in it. It would never break down.
I have never heard of somebody having trouble with low concentrations of ethanol, other than the need for a slight carb adjustment.

 

[Woodie]

Did it say why?
If I made a saw I'd say do not put gas in it. It would never break down.
I have never heard of somebody having trouble with low concentrations of ethanol, other than the need for a slight carb adjustment.

I just chased down the paper, and it didn't say why. And "upon further review," it does specifically mention to avoid "gasolines which contain high amounts of alcohol, such as gasohol."

Now, what is a high concentration vs. a low concentration, I suppose that's anyone's guess. Here in MI it's common for the low-end stations to have 10% ethanol blended in. That's what I've always known as "gasohol," and for my vehicle I avoid that stuff like bird flu.

But maybe they're trying to say that E85 is bad in their saws, but that 10% is okay?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I run 10% all the time without problems. I wouldn't even try E85!

 

[PWB]

Just because it's premium doesn't mean it doesn't have ethanol.

You're right. I buy (for myself) from a station that I KNOW sells ethanol free. How do I know? Because my brother drives the truck that delivers fuel to most of the stations around here.

 

[Lakeside53]

I just chased down the paper, and it didn't say why. And "upon further review," it does specifically mention to avoid "gasolines which contain high amounts of alcohol, such as gasohol."

Now, what is a high concentration vs. a low concentration, I suppose that's anyone's guess. Here in MI it's common for the low-end stations to have 10% ethanol blended in. That's what I've always known as "gasohol," and for my vehicle I avoid that stuff like bird flu.

But maybe they're trying to say that E85 is bad in their saws, but that 10% is okay?

I think 10% is "o.k." if you use it quickly (no storage), and use mid grade (89) or above. Personally, I won't. I see way too many saws that run too hot - classic sign is the plastic above the muffler has started to melt! As for adjusting the carb, most won't as it requires you remove the limiter caps from post 1999 saws to make them richer. Richening up the carb uses more gas so are you really saving money?

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

As for adjusting the carb, most won't as it requires you remove the limiter caps from post 1999 saws to make them richer. Richening up the carb uses more gas so are you really saving money?

Well, if it keeps your saw from doing the lean sieze dance, yeah, you're saving money.

But for some of us, that's not even a consideration. We simply can't get anything else around here, unless I go out to the airport. (Not sure even then.) So, you run richer to spare your saw.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Lakeside,
Our saw store's salesmen will typically ask what kind of gas we will run and then tune the saw to that type of gas. Most people aren't going to drive 50 miles to get a tank of gas for the saw, but then some will.
We haven't had any problem with overheating or anything else, running regular unleaded (87 octane) with 10% ethanol.
Maybe the overheating you see is abuse of the saw, running it dull and pushing like mad, or carb adjustment problems.

 

[brian660]

I don't have any information on E85 in saws.
It makes me wonder about ethanol. Recent studies show it take something like 1.5 gallons of petroleum to make 1 gallon of ethanol, it costs more, and your vehicle gets worse mileage.

i`d recommend not reading anymore studies wherever you found that one

ethanol isn`t made from petroleum oil

second if it cost more to make why do they sell e85 for a dollar less per gallon then gasoline?

I can`t say anything about the mileage as I drive diesel pickups but my last rental was a chevy impala in denver last month and I was getting a consistent 20 mpg, I found that to be pretty good seeing as I did alot of stop and go and 75mph driving, even if the mileage is lower like I said e85 was a dollar less per gallon then 89 octane, i`m sure the savings more then makes for the slight loss.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Brian, pull your head out of the sand and look at this: http://hubbert.mines.edu/news/Pimentel_98-2.pdf#search=%22producing%20ethanol%20cost%22
It takes huge amounts of petrolium oil to grow, harvest, transport, dry, ferment, and process the corn into ethanol.
The conclusion reads in part:
About 71% more energy is used creating a gallon of ethanol than the energy contained in a gallon of ethanol."

I live in a county that borders the area where it is required to sell ethanol. I have tested mileage of several different vehicles several different times between the blended fuels and straight gasoline. You lose about 5 to 10% mileage with the 10% ethanol.

The reason it is cheap is because of huge government subsidies for both farming and ethanol production.

 

[Lakeside53]

Lakeside,
.
We haven't had any problem with overheating or anything else, running regular unleaded (87 octane) with 10% ethanol.

Maybe the overheating you see is abuse of the saw, running it dull and pushing like mad, or carb adjustment problems.

Yes, it can be all of the above... and/or using it really hard in big wood on hot days. Most of the bad saws I see - the users don't even know where the carb is! I'm guessing most of the problem is all of the above AND using old 10% gas gas.

The min octane for Stihl saws is now 89. Yes, I've used regular and with 10% now and then with no adverse effects, and I wouldn't drive 50 miles to get the "right gas", but then again, I don't have to. You use your gas quickly and don't have any problems - good; the weekend warriors who buy gas every few months, may not be as lucky.

You say they adjust your carb to the gas. So they pull the limiter caps of a new saw and reset them? They are shipped from the factory in the richest position allowed for Max RPM and emissions - adjustment without pulling only makes them leaner. Not trying to pick a fight at all - just curious..

 

[Lakeside53]

I have tested mileage of several different vehicles several different times between the blended fuels and straight gasoline. You lose about 5 to 10% mileage with the 10% ethanol.

.

I concur with that! We get "winter gas" Oct 31st though March 31st to keep down the smog, and my truck looses 10% plus immediately. It's wash in price between running the non-alcohol premium (not all brands) and the alcohol mix regular, so just grit my teeth and keep filling with regular...

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Yes, if the limiters need to be pulled to set it to the correct RPMs, that what is done, pull the limiter, set the saw, and replace the limiter in the center of it's adjustment.
The ethanol blend leans the saw out about 1000 RPM. Then after break in, the leans out again a bit, so you can see the combination can get the saw running really too lean.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

i`d recommend not reading anymore studies wherever you found that one

I'd recommend reading up (at least a little bit) on the subject before commenting.

ethanol isn`t made from petroleum oil

Fuel is required for the production of ethanol. That fuel is petroleum oil. More energy from petro is required to produce one gallon of ethanol than one gallon of ethanol contains. It's a net energy LOSS.

second if it cost more to make why do they sell e85 for a dollar less per gallon then gasoline?

As Mike said, massive government subsidies. Politics in action. If the Fed.Gov would stop subsidizing it, we wouldn't be discussing it because it wouldn't be around.



Brazil is successfully using alcohol for fuel because they have an abundant supply of cheap sugar cane, a very good source of alcohol. Corn is NOT a good source.


Which proves that there is no reason at all that ALL internal combustion engines can't be made to run alcohol or gasohol with no downside. There simply is no good reason to still be using filter and pump components that are disolved by alchohol.

I'm not saying alcohol won't hurt our saws, I'm saying there's no reason they can't be built so that alcohol won't hurt our saws.

 

[oldsaw]

I'd recommend reading up (at least a little bit) on the subject before commenting.




Fuel is required for the production of ethanol. That fuel is petroleum oil. More energy from petro is required to produce one gallon of ethanol than one gallon of ethanol contains. It's a net energy LOSS.





As Mike said, massive government subsidies. Politics in action. If the Fed.Gov would stop subsidizing it, we wouldn't be discussing it because it wouldn't be around.



Brazil is successfully using alcohol for fuel because they have an abundant supply of cheap sugar cane, a very good source of alcohol. Corn is NOT a good source.


Which proves that there is no reason at all that ALL internal combustion engines can't be made to run alcohol or gasohol with no downside. There simply is no good reason to still be using filter and pump components that are disolved by alchohol.

I'm not saying alcohol won't hurt our saws, I'm saying there's no reason they can't be built so that alcohol won't hurt our saws.

Corn is actually a pretty good source, if you use the stalk, cob, and all. We just use the grain portion which makes good whiskey, but is an expensive way to make fuel. By the time you factor in drying the original corn for storage, and the heating for distillation, yes, I believe you would be in the energy "hole" as it were. If you do it like Brazil, who uses some chemical to break down the cellulose in the stalk of the sugar cane to get more alcohol yield, it can be made profitably at current oil prices. In the US we would use silage, which is chopped up whole corn plants and ferment them.
Keep in mind that alcohol has about 2/3 or 3/4s of the energy of gasoline, but it does increase octane, which the refineries take advantage of.

Mark

 

[BostonBull]

Corn sucks as a source for cellulose!!! The GOVERNMENT is using it to help the farmers. Whats the purest form of cellulose around? WOOD! So by using corn, you have to ADD one extra step to the process just to extract the celluose. Thats like having to tune up your saw before every start. Its just a government subsidary helping farmers, once ethanol use takes off they will be looking for cheaper a way to make it.....which will be wood chips, or if alcohol in gas takes off it will be sugar cane from Puerto Rico and Hawaii.

 

[brian660]

petroleum oil is not needed to make ethanol, same goes for the methanol produced in brazil from sugarcane, if you`d like to stop by the sinclair refinery in wyoming and prove some very smart people wrong (not me) i`m sure they`d welcome your ideas as i`m pretty sure some of their salary is for finding more ways to screw people out of more money at the pump

 

[arnbobold]

And they are building 2 of these plants less than 50 mile from me right now. One is 20 miles away in a town population of 850. They say it will require at least 50 new employee's to start off with, then more later. So, looks like it will be around awhile. Makes you wonder where it's going to be in a few years from now. Bob

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

petroleum oil is not needed to make ethanol,

What did they plow the field up with, horses?

 

[brian660]

wow thats mature, if ya wanna be a smartass i`m sure the farmers could be running their equipment on biodiesel which also requires no petroleum to produce.