ethicsvstrees

[ok2climb]

My unwillingness to top, do severe crown reductions(more than 25%)and just suck $ out of clients pruning trees that should come down has cost me my job. I've delt with this problem a couple of times, with all types of companies in N V.A. Anyone else have the same problem?

 

[TimberJack_7]

My unwillingness to top, do severe crown reductions(more than 25%)and just suck $ out of clients pruning trees that should come down has cost me my job. I've delt with this problem a couple of times, with all types of companies in N V.A. Anyone else have the same problem?

Sounds like it may be time to go into business for yourself. From there you can educate your clients on the proper way to trim/prune/height reduction, etc.

You may as well suck the $$$ out of a clients pocket because it you don't, someone else will. It also may as well be someone who educates the client in the process.

 

[rebelman]

I've found that if you look the customer in the eye and explain that there are standards based on scientific research, and that you do not violate these standards, most will listen to your recomendations.

 

[xtremetrees]

Hang tuff, I try not to be self rightous and check my condemnation towards my fellows. With knowledge comes responsibility and sometimes that sucks. .Look its a tuff job i got respet for anyone climbing trees or fallin trees or whatever. Its important that I align myself with my god given talents.

There was once a pine removal that was so large 145 feet that I kicked the dirt for almost an hour before I climbed it. The crew just sat around watching me wondering, I almost cried it was that large. The tree was so old growth but had to go as a house was being built under it.
Workin for myself I can beg off them majestic ones and leave them for another. I dont mean to be sentimental but trees have been very forgiving to me, Im not hurt and still alivem I have to recognize that and pay homeage, respect,honor to them for that.

 

[Ekka]

Time to move on, perhaps contract out to better places.

This town I'm in is full of hacks, standard practice is whacking trees in half, spur climbing prunes, talking crap about how dangerous they are and should be removed and last but not least to the bag of tricks of these imcompetants and misguided is ........

.....Prune your drought stressed tree to aid it's recovery!

Problem is, are there regs or laws being broken? Probably not, and that's the problem if decent vegetation protection regs and standards of practices are not in place.

Can you get hold of a camera and take some pics of what's been done?

 

[VTclimber]

I'm in NoVA too, and its hard to be responsible when all the clients see trees that have been hacked by others and think they want the same thing. Some people are hard to reason with, and believe that your job is to do what they say, regardless of your opinion on the matter. Other posters have mentioned going into business for yourself, but I know how hard that can be in this area. There are a lot of costs and it is hard in our profession to live here as it is. My best advice would be to look around to the companies that you see doing the right thing and perhaps try to get in with them. Or, alternatively, try to do some education from within on your own company, although I also know how hard that can be. Its tough to teach an old dog new tricks, but you never know, they just might get it. Good luck!

 

[treeseer]

"My unwillingness to top, do severe crown reductions(more than 25%)and just suck $ out of clients pruning trees that should come down has cost me my job. I've delt with this problem a couple of times, with all types of companies in N V.A. Anyone else have the same problem?"

Might be time to rein in the judgments, and check the attitude. :angel:

I often do reductions >25%, and keep trees alive that many think should be removed. It's all up to the owner, and the way the options are presented. Remember most of all that standards are guidelines--read ALL of ANSI and the BMP's, and you will see more "should"s than "shall"s.

Trees vary, so you have to apply the standards with some flexibility, and don't be in such a rush to condemn the decisions of others. You don't know it all; no one does. It does not sound like you have the experience for self-employment. Ask for your job back--tell your boss that you'll stop being a hardhead.

 

[beowulf343]

My unwillingness to just suck $ out of clients pruning trees that should come down has cost me my job.

I agree with you ok2. In fact that is my biggest problem with some of the people on this site. They just want to keep pruning trees and charging for it every time instead of just taking the tree down. Some trees just have to come down, not every tree can or even should be saved. It's the homeowner's property and their trees-if they want it taken down, i'll take it down. Personally, I think you took the right stand-tree companies that just prune trees that need to be taken down are just not ethical.

(Let the b--ing begin!)

 

[xtremetrees]

Come on treeseer this guy is just trying to hold up to his ethics.
You dont know he cant go into bus for hisself cause I have. Youd be amazed at the trees I roll with down the road and just how little it cost me.
I'll tell ya. Mostly my investment went into my saws. 8 of them and then a 2000 dollar truck and 1000 dollar trailer.
Just can do everything with almost nothing. Im living breathing tree hugging proof.

However, I am leaning towards not pruning trees that are too mature, pruning should be applied to trees when young. But hey I love to make trees look kick butt, I can trim a tree that will draw attention, be better for it and generaly more pleasing to the neighborhood.
If your only doing removals why are you at the arborist site. You know how to cut trees down but to prunn a living organism and then watch it respond to your cuts over the years is very rewarding.

You can be a one stop tree shop.
On top of removing 4 metric tonn of material a day I'm a one stop tree shop. My developing client base need go no further, partly because of you folks and mostly because of the internet. Emailing diease diagnosis takes a mear hour whereas a hack would guess at it and suggest removal. You gotta know where to find the info, a general desire to know the info, finally how it is applied this to me is what seperates the men from the boys.

 

[squisher]

You should always be true to yourself and the trees. Do whats right for the trees. I was a logger for years. I fell for years. I didn't get into tree care to be a urban logger and might I suggest that if you are a urban logger take it to the bush and leave tree care to professionals who care about trees.

Squisher

 

[John464]

You should always be true to yourself and the trees.

it is our responsibility to educate what is right and sell what should be done to the tree, but ultimately you have a customer whom contracts the tree service in what they want done. It is their home, their trees and they're the ones paying you.

If you are upsetting your customer base by only doing what you want because it's the optimal method for the trees then you will end up either without a job like this guy or go out of business. We are hired to perform a service, when you combine that with educating the customer and they fully understand they are going against their best interest. Then you have a decision to make is either upset or potentially lose a customer or do what they want to their trees. I'm sorry but I put business before anyones trees and I'll do what they wish after clearly explaining the potential downside. The customer is always right.

What is more important adhering to a strict code of ethics or becoming the most sucessful tree guy possible? Success is measured by those you service. Not what you write in your daily journal.

 

[squisher]

Where do you draw the line though. In my limited experience I've been finding that with a little education most people will do what's best for the trees. If a customer insists that they want their trees topped and I mean topped reduced past the point of being able to do any kind of reasonable crown reduction do you do it? I don't and if that upsets the customer too bad. There are plenty of tree services in my area that I can recommend for them that will hack their trees right up if that's what they insist on. I don't see this as upsetting my customer base. I see it as building a reputation of only doing quality tree work. My town is fairly small and on any given day I already drive by alot of trees that I care for. When I look at them I'm proud of what I've done. I'm not going to hack it up just to get a job because long after that money is spent the crappy work that was done will be remembered.

You can run a business and stay true to yourself and if that upsets some along the too bad for them. They are usually the cheapskates anyway that think tree work is way overpriced to begin with.

p.s. I work as much as I want and have never advertised. All my work is word of mouth from satisfied clients. I'm not even in the yellow pages.

 

[treeseer]

long after that money is spent the crappy work that was done will be remembered.

p.s. I work as much as I want and have never advertised. All my work is word of mouth from satisfied clients. .

I think I see a connection there. Just because a customer is wrong does not mean you have to be. The trees are your advertising, good and bad.

 

[juststumps]

I agree with you ok2. In fact that is my biggest problem with some of the people on this site. They just want to keep pruning trees and charging for it every time instead of just taking the tree down. Some trees just have to come down, not every tree can or even should be saved. It's the homeowner's property and their trees-if they want it taken down, i'll take it down. Personally, I think you took the right stand-tree companies that just prune trees that need to be taken down are just not ethical.

(Let the b--ing begin!)

funny, i get a lot of the opposite!!! a lot of the home owners won't let you take the tree out!!!! they would rather pay to have a screwed up, hollow ,ant infested, rotten at the base tree,,pruned,, topped,, cabled,, than cut it down....they don't care that it looks like a phone pole,, with one branch, and six leaves...it's their tree, they don't care that it's a hazzard... and if you wont do it,, someone else will!!!

 

[treeseer]

hollow ,ant infested, rotten at the base tree

Many veteran trees match this description. They will be smiling at the sun long after you are dead and turned into ashes or compost passing through an earthworm's gut. Here's a story about a couple that safely kept a 90% hollow, huge oak for 12 years.

Success is measured by the trees we manage well.

 

[rebelman]

Tell them topping is like putting a water line two inches deep. The code says eighteen inches, put it 2 inches and you'll have problems in the future. And some people will call the same guy to bury it two inches deep again and again.

 

[arboralliance]

Lost in the mire...

My unwillingness to top, do severe crown reductions(more than 25%)and just suck $ out of clients pruning trees that should come down has cost me my job. I've delt with this problem a couple of times, with all types of companies in N V.A. Anyone else have the same problem?

Am I missing something here?

Is ok2climb talking about the difference between allowing a tree to decline naturally and or assisting it to be maintained as long as possible or is he voting for removal over maintenance/no cut consultation and natural decline?

"My unwillingness to top, do severe crown reductions(more than 25%)and just suck $ out of clients pruning trees that should come down has cost me my job. I've delt with this problem a couple of times, with all types of companies in N V.A. Anyone else have the same problem?"

Might be time to rein in the judgments, and check the attitude. :angel:

I often do reductions >25%, and keep trees alive that many think should be removed. It's all up to the owner, and the way the options are presented. Remember most of all that standards are guidelines--read ALL of ANSI and the BMP's, and you will see more "should"s than "shall"s.

Trees vary, so you have to apply the standards with some flexibility, and don't be in such a rush to condemn the decisions of others. You don't know it all; no one does. It does not sound like you have the experience for self-employment. Ask for your job back--tell your boss that you'll stop being a hardhead.

Many veteran trees match this description. They will be smiling at the sun long after you are dead and turned into ashes or compost passing through an earthworm's gut. Here's a story about a couple that safely kept a 90% hollow, huge oak for 12 years.

Success is measured by the trees we manage well.

Any pictures of the beauty you describe in the word doc. abstract Guy?

So many times I have talked for hours unpaid having been called in for a quote to remove convincing the property owner to retain without touching and fearing not the aged beauty appropriately declining in front or rear yard, much to the dismay of said property owners ideal that money has to transpire based on servitude to fear instilled by previous visits and comments from "loppers" such as; "It's really dangerous moit, gotta take it out before it *does something natural and wonderful like* loses a limb or *leans over a bit more* falls over!!" that and society convincing us money is the end gain of success or the only energy worth exchanging for advice...

 

[Ekka]

I thought OK2climb was referring more to the likes of the attached pic I took today of a class job around the corner done about 2 months ago.

 

[treeseer]

I thought OK2climb was referring more to the likes of the attached pic I took today of a class job around the corner done about 2 months ago.

And that place calls itself "Gardens"? What will those trees look like in ten years?

Jarrah here is a pdf of the same article, on page 32, with pics:
http://www.treecareindustry.org/PDFs/TCI_Mag_Nov_05.pdf

Re the effects of topping, yesterday I visited ten topped cherries, and had to condemn five to death, and the other five to extensive and espensive restoration. See the first picture in the article on page 56:
http://www.treecareindustry.org/PDFs/TCI_Mag_Oct_05.pdf

I think the original poster was not talking about the egregious hack jobs,but perhaps going nuts because his boss was taking more than the 25% that is the guideline;"no more than one-fouth of its foliage *should* be removed". (p 13, BMPs) Read the full BMP's, and stop chiseling its guidelines into stone.

If you want to see the current pruning standards, and you are free to comment on same, here: http://128.241.193.252/PDFs/A300Part1-Drft1-V1-PubRev.pdf

"I have talked for hours unpaid having been called in for a quote to remove convincing the property owner to retain...society convincing us money is the end gain of success or the only energy worth exchanging for advice...'

Jarrah, money is good, and consultation is worth money, according to the expertise of the consultant. If you want to give it away fine, but that does not establish much value in the mind of the recipient. If people in your market won't pay for consultation, keep showing them the value of trees (as I'm sure you are). I agree that volunteer work can be very rewarding--how's Electra doing these days?

 

[ok2climb]

I am without work but i can still look at myself with confidence, knowing that i did the right thing. This is a service industry and its hard to draw that line, but what service is given when you compromise the trees health? Just putting $ in your pocket has never been enough for me to turn a blind eye to what is right. If peoples only concerns are for profit and bottom lines, and of being the best in the biz, doing whatever it takes to get there, then how/will our industry ever change?