ethicsvstrees

[treeseer]

Why not post a picture of the hack work your boss has done, and your "ethical" alternatives?

I think the original poster was not talking about the egregious hack jobs,but perhaps going nuts because his boss was taking more than the 25% that is the guideline;"no more than one-fouth of its foliage *should* be removed". (p 13, BMPs) Read the full BMP's, and stop chiseling its guidelines into stone.

 

[ok2climb]

no problem

 

[jntrees]

I would try to make amends with the owner. Good companies are hard to come by. Besides, how often does this happen? If it happens alot then yeah, quit. If it happens a couple times a year or whatever then swallow your pride and bear it. It's gonna happen everywhere you go.
Everyone sells work you may not agree with or don't want to do. Thats the nature of this business. Unless you do it yourself, there will probably always be some conflicts.

 

[rebelman]

Bingo. Do it yourself.

 

[arboralliance]

I'm hearin ya mate...

ok2climb i am in the exact same :censored: predicament...

I have seen even the top, TOP arborists in the industry do ridiculous things to trees and their surrounds...

When I have questioned this I have been dismissed on a number of occasions and clearly unfairly at that...:bang:

I also though have theories that don't line up with the standards as I have successfully experimented with and discussed these theories with others but wouldn't raise them around anyone not into rational and deep thought on tree biology OUTSIDE the norm and seemingly acceptable standards...:sword:

I draw my theories from a life time of experience from a multitude of arenas within horticulture and vegetation management...

ok2climb I would really like to know of or see an example of the work you are dismayed about...

I am still lost as to the motives of your post; are you against differing views and practice that might push the bounds of the standards OR are you referring to your ex boss straight out lopping with no regard?:monkey:

I would love to really open this one up ok2climb...

BRING IT ON MAN, I'M RIGHT THERE WITH YA

 

[juststumps]

Many veteran trees match this description. They will be smiling at the sun long after you are dead and turned into ashes or compost passing through an earthworm's gut. Here's a story about a couple that safely kept a 90% hollow, huge oak for 12 years.

Success is measured by the trees we manage well.

i'm not talking about trees you can work with,, i'm talking trees i wouldn't stand next to!!! the home owner won't let you take it out!!!!

 

[treeseer]

i'm not talking about trees you can work with,, i'm talking trees i wouldn't stand next to!!! the home owner won't let you take it out!!!!

It's their tree, so why are you so excited???!!!!!?

That hollow Giant, I crawled into and laid down inside of it, and reached my arms over my head with my legs straight. I don't think I could have found another arborist to say a 90% hollow tree could be worked with. Yet there were not any significant aggravating factors so it was worked with for over ten years, until I saw cracks, oozing and Laetiporus.

Even then, with the top half dead, the husband wanted it pruned. At that point, I bowed out, like you're talking about doing. His sentiment seemed strange, but not enough to get excited about. His tree, his business.

 

[Climb020]

Ok2Climb I just went through the same thing. Told my boss I didn't agree with either his pruning or safety policies. What I did was look up business in my area with the TCIA accredidation. This means they must follow specific guidlines on safety as well as pruning and other things. Will be starting the new job Tuesday. Most bosses you can't change. They put more time in then you did so they think they know it all.

I have done numberous topping and hack jobs with this company as well as installing copper flashing to topped trees to stop decay but hello lightning???? I have been told to prune to kill as well as spike prune. Look around Ok2 and see what is out there and hopefully you can find a company that has similar ethics.

I use to work with Stumps and he is right. Just friday there was a storm damaged White Oak. The entire top of the tree broke and left 1 branch on the trunk. The customer wanted it left standing. But it is there trees but you should educated them both on the tree as well as the financial aspect. Like I can prune it now and take it down next year and it will cost you $2500. Or we can just take it down now for $1800.

 

[treeseer]

installing copper flashing to topped trees to stop decay

Man that is amazing. You think you have heard them all, then this.

there was a storm damaged White Oak. The entire top of the tree broke and left 1 branch on the trunk. The customer wanted it left standing. But it is there trees but you should educated them both on the tree as well as the financial aspect. Like I can prune it now and take it down next year and it will cost you $2500. Or we can just take it down now for $1800.

I'm wondering about this education that you are giving out so freely. It sounds like it is worth exactly what it costs. Why are you telling her that the tree must be taken down in one year? White oak is very slow to rot. That tree might be standing longer than you are.

Can you post a picture and tell us how you would prune it?

 

[arboralliance]

Absolutely...

Here, here treeseer...

The trees I have convinced clients to retain and not touch were massive split and leaning trees from Aciacia melanoxylon through to Cupressus simpervirens and a multitude of varying Euc's...

For :censored: sake, trees can fall over and continue to thrive for thousands of years AND DO! In allot of cases its the only way they can continue to grow for 10's of thousands of years...

We are risk management specialists not euthanasia specialists, manage the risk men don't knee jerk wipe the risk off the face of the planet... Your on the wrong planet for that kinda attitude...

 

[juststumps]

Man that is amazing. You think you have heard them all, then this.I'm wondering about this education that you are giving out so freely. It sounds like it is worth exactly what it costs. Why are you telling her that the tree must be taken down in one year? White oak is very slow to rot. That tree might be standing longer than you are.

Can you post a picture and tell us how you would prune it?

aren't you the one that started this thread?? was ?????ing about people soaking their customers on prunning... rather than just taking the tree down, if it was f'ed up??

prune it?? there is nothing left to prune!! 125' tree , 12-14" dbh,,, tree snapped at 80',, lowest limb is at 65',, next limb was at 90',,, then the crown....what is there to prune?? its a 65' phone pole with one cross arm...thing looks like the start of a game of hang man...90% of the foliage is gone,, and its 60' shorter than the surounding trees...the other trees will fill in the void...your right, it probably wont die,, it will just uproot and fall onto the home owners power lines.now that there is nothing to help hold it up....

so now the customer gets double banged,,, once for taking the broken top out,, and again to come back later to take the tree out,, instead of taking the thing out in one shot....

 

[juststumps]

my mistake, someone else started this... my bad!!

 

[treeseer]

my mistake, someone else started this... my bad!!

hey no problem, and remember if you hit the Edit button you can take back what you wish you had not said.

On pruning tha wreck of a tree, I was just looking for how the cuts would be made. If the owner values the tree and does not want it gone (yet), our job is to extend its safe useful life, until the owner decides that it's time.

Whether that is 1 year or 10 years or 100 years is not your business. Keeping it as safe and healthy and attractive, within the owner's guidelines, is all you need to worry about. My clients make what I consider to be idiotic decisions all the time, but I have to keep my opinions to myself. :taped:

I tell them facts that might support another course of action that I consider wiser, but once they decide, that's it. When you have a passion for your work it's hard to keep your emotions in a bottle, but that is what you gotta do.

 

[beowulf343]

For :censored: sake, trees can fall over and continue to thrive for thousands of years AND DO! In allot of cases its the only way they can continue to grow for 10's of thousands of years...

Yeah, that's fine and dandy in the woods, but man has encroached on the tree's turf. Human safety rates higher in my book than saving a hollow tree. Sure, a hollow tree may stand for years but a windstorm, or a snowstorm may suddenly come along and the tree is not strong enough to withstand it. Suddenly instead of a simple bill to remove the tree, you are now talking about repair bills or even hospital bills and you still have to pay to remove the tree. If a tree is in such bad shape, why nurse it along for 10 years? Cut it down, plant a new tree and in 10 years you will have a healthy little tree. Just my 2 cents.

 

[woodchux]

Ugly trees do more than just look bad, they produce the oxygen that we all need to breath. Don't rush to cut the "ugly" trees down just because you're good with a saw.

 

[juststumps]

Ugly trees do more than just look bad, they produce the oxygen that we all need to breath. Don't rush to cut the "ugly" trees down just because you're good with a saw.

i just took half of one of those ugly oxygen producing trees off a roof this mourning.. in the tail end of ERNESTO...they say working soaking wet, in ripping winds,, builds character!!! tall black locust,, top died,,had some big break outs before. got clam shells growing up the side..customer didn't want to remove it...easy notch and drop...

paid to have it topped 6 mos ago

going to pay for emergency storm damage removal today

going to pay for us to go back and clean up the snot pile we left on the ground, this tuesday

going to pay for us to take down the rest of the tree, tuesday

going to pay to have the roof fixed

this tree got really expensive!!!!!

 

[arboralliance]

Blessings....

i just took half of one of those ugly oxygen producing trees off a roof this mourning.. in the tail end of ERNESTO...they say working soaking wet, in ripping winds,, builds character!!! tall black locust,, top died,,had some big break outs before. got clam shells growing up the side..customer didn't want to remove it...easy notch and drop...

paid to have it topped 6 mos ago

going to pay for emergency storm damage removal today

going to pay for us to go back and clean up the snot pile we left on the ground, this tuesday

going to pay for us to take down the rest of the tree, tuesday

going to pay to have the roof fixed

this tree got really expensive!!!!!

One mans worry is another mans blessings...

Good to see you counting yours there juststumps, or were you complaining about having work?

And to you all these trees are UGLY IN WHO'S EYE'S!!

May your children not be born with any deformities or only heaven help them...

May your elders and friends and family not suffer age or deformitty heaven help them...

Lets spend $5k - $20k or more pimping mah :censored: old :censored: ride but :censored: thu old tree, :censored: ugly old thang!!

 

[Ekka]

got clam shells growing up the side..customer didn't want to remove it...easy notch and drop...

So, this tree has fruiting bodies up the trunk, the top was dead and where abouts did it fail?

Could it be said that the failure was and act of God or an act of Negligence on the owners behalf?

And on that note many times I have had people say to me point blank (on defective trees) "Oh well, if it falls over or fails insurance will cover it".

So in essence, we are paying loaded premiums to subside poor tree work and negligent home owners into a bargain.

Was the failure assessable, predictable and mitigable? Yes, yes and yes .... sorry luv, NO CLAIM!

Are you expected to drive around in a roadworthy car? Of course. Are you questioned on modifications to your vehicle and have to have them assessed? Of course you do.

Guy, you have that story somewhere about the man who was killed at a set of traffic lights when a tree failed due to the footpath being built years earlier severing the roots. It fell on his car.

Here's some examples I dug up from my files. Pics are such fun. I try to always have the camera on hand and when I see something, click click.

 

[treeseer]

Eric here it's not negligence legally speaking unless it's proven the owner was aware of a critical hazard. Certified letters can document this. If the clamshelled locust's neighbor had done this, it may have been removed.

O and in that case here the guy did not die, just broke his back. Full recovery for him; city's ins co lost millions. People may unreasonably expect that all arborists are experienced and knowledgeable enough to be experts in tree risk assessment, even if they are not. Knowledge gained from experience and from books will build your abilities, but that knowledge is a double-edged sword. As professionals we are expected to act reasonably and in the public interest if we see a very high-risk, life-threatening condition.

Despite our disclaimers, and even if we were hired for other reasons and they are not part of our assignment, we may still be wrongly considered responsible for nearby trees. In extreme cases, it may be a good idea to document critical conditions with words and pictures, deliver that information to the property owners, and make copies for your files.

Jarrah I don't know if you have Robinia pseudoacacia there but the one juststumps is talking about does not sound saveable with unlimited $$. Owner--and tree topper-- made a bad decision so he and yes all of us paid. But people build in floodplains and on barrier islands and we all pay big $$ when their houses are ruined, so we don't feel the pinch so much from the odd tree failure.

O and juststumps, working in storms should not jsut build character, but build doubletime pay for staff too. pictures would have been good to see.

 

[Bermie]

Some more hack job pictures: How can anyone do this to trees?
The Mahogany was beautiful, I don't have a before picture, but it was a feature in the front of this house, I almost crashed when I drove by and saw what had been done.
The poinciana problem is two houses up the road, I got called to come and do what I could to thin the regrowth and remove dead and rotten wood.