Ever have a job like this....

[ropensaddle]

Hey, I use my 20 ton pto winch on my bucket truck I know
I have enough pull I get a good pull on tree kill engine. The winch usually
has enough tension to fell tree and if it doesn't go when two inch of meat
left of hinge I kill saw and start truck and she pulls her over. I have started this procedure on smaller trees and uprooted them to save grinding time!!
I can pull up to a twenty inch tree out of the ground, but if don't have
much room I just get tight and kill truck! This pull is like hooking to a
tractor but better because its steady pull that ten groundmen could
not duplicate:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[ropensaddle]

Uhhh, ok. I have never done this, I have pounded the living snot outta wedges, stacked 'em, beat them mercillessly untill she went over, never seen the holding wood bust vertically. I have screwed up falling before, anyone who has done it a lot has, no big deal. Always a good idea to back up a rope with wedges anyways. Am I wrong here?

Must have cut too fast, or too much hinge wood before driving wedge, cut a little drive a little and works better than cutting until sets back on notch and then driving wedge. Going too fast on back cut is number one cause of felling problems!!

 

[clearance]

Must have cut too fast, or too much hinge wood before driving wedge, cut a little drive a little and works better than cutting until sets back on notch and then driving wedge. Going too fast on back cut is number one cause of felling problems!!

I figure the #1 cause is an improper undercut myself. You should really set the wedge as soon as you can. Cut a little, drive a little, theres the ticket.

 

[treesquirrel]

Given the cost of a Big Shot and throw line, and how easy it makes it to place a pull line in just about any tree, I do not see any reason not to have one on every job. Wedges are great tools and have many uses, but nothing beats a 1/2" line near the top of a tree to pull one over. Stop asking "do I really need it?" and get a Big Shot to place a pull line.

Yep! The big shot changed my life forever. I cannot even fathom not placing a line now that it takes maybe 5-10 minutes tops to do so.

 

[Ekka]

It could be argued then that it wasn't the wedge that broke the hinge wood but the conditions. Had the wedge not have been inserted the tree would have failed anyway, which means inappropriate method selected.

Back leaners and headwinds need back ups, and anyone wedging in such conditions in suburbia without back up is taking risks.

Also, I have never lost a tree out the back, but I wouldn't take the risk either if it were a bad back leaner/weighted tree/windy etc, of course a rope gives greater support but I still wedge as I cut.

What we dont know is how much hinge wood was left in this case, there's no pics to see, was it too little etc.

 

[Brush Hog]

I don't really remember how much hinge was left. I think what really happened was wind switched direction at the worst possible time. Wind was coming out of NW to W which was the way the tree was going to fall and it wasn't a lot of wind else I would have bagged the job. It was way out in the backyard so no threat of damage and I was experimenting with wedges. I've got a buddy that uses them all the time and figured I'd give it a shot. Guess I should've talked to him first huh. Is it really possible to drop with just wedges and where can I get some info ? This is a technique new to me but would like to learn more about it
Pete

 

[clearance]

Is it really possible to drop with just wedges and where can I get some info ? This is a technique new to me but would like to learn more about it
Pete

Guys do it every day, that falling. You said the wedge you had was too long, here is an idea. Put in the backcut first, tap in the wedge gently, now put in the undercut, making sure you do not cut off your holding wood. This works good on pecker poles. There is a wealth of information on this site, there are some real fallers here. Use the search function.

 

[Boa07]

Clearance is right there are lots of guys with years of experience on this site who have posted in lots of threads discussing aspects of falling trees in great detail. Here's a simple basic guide from NZ which deals with the use of wedges really nicely, the split backcut technique is one taught to me in Forestry that I use every day I fall trees, its safe reliable repeatable in all kinds of situations. (page 21)
One of the great things about splitting your back cut is it makes you consider other aspects of the process ie escape routes

 

[Bermie]

split level cut

Clearance is right there are lots of guys with years of experience on this site who have posted in lots of threads discussing aspects of falling trees in great detail. Here's a simple basic guide from NZ which deals with the use of wedges really nicely, the split backcut technique is one taught to me in Forestry that I use every day I fall trees, its safe reliable repeatable in all kinds of situations. (page 21)
One of the great things about splitting your back cut is it makes you consider other aspects of the process ie escape routes

I wondered when someone would mention split cuts, we call it the split level cut or breaker bar cut. I use it all the time to put leaners where I want them to go, was doing it all day yesterday clearing trashy scrub growth of fiddlewood.

This cut page 27, is where the felling bar/breaker bar come into its own, once the first half of the backcut is done, put the bar in it, then finish the second angled cut and lever the tree over. Sometimes you can see the tree sit back, but all is well, no drama as you already have your aid tool in place.
You have to be careful though and assess the weight, size and lean and wind, to determine what level of assistance you need, just the bar, a rope and the bar, a rope and high lift wedge or a winch and wedges. Sense and sensibility are essential!

I looked at your pdf booklet and on page 27 it has a picture of it. The only difference I was taught is the second angled part of the backcut should end up being the same height on the outside edge as the first cut, and should slightly 'underlap' the first cut.

The biggest problem with this cut is not matching or overlapping the cuts inside the tree next to the back of the hinge. If you leave a 'triangle' of uncut wood in that area it is an absolute bugger to get the tree over and then the drama starts...

:greenchainsaw:
Happy Easter everyone.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

It is simple physics and I have seen it happen. If you have a back lean, rather than a forward lean it makes a difference. With a forward lean you have the face cut in your favor, as the hinge is working, the tree is falling. So it is not in a bind. But with a back lean, the weight of the tree is behind the hinge and is set on the wedge, which creates a lever action that pulls up on the hinge.

Well, I ain't a tree guy (as clearance likes to point out ), but the physics is pretty straightforward here. The forces involved are simple to diagram. Treeman is right - back lean & front lean are completely different animals, and with back lean, a wedge is putting vertical stress on the hinge. It can't NOT do so. Whether it's enough to cause failure is, of course, dependent on many variables.

 

[sawsong]

I wondered when someone would mention split cuts, we call it the split level cut or breaker bar cut. I use it all the time to put leaners where I want them to go, was doing it all day yesterday clearing trashy scrub growth of fiddlewood.

This cut page 27, is where the felling bar/breaker bar come into its own, once the first half of the backcut is done, put the bar in it, then finish the second angled cut and lever the tree over. Sometimes you can see the tree sit back, but all is well, no drama as you already have your aid tool in place.
You have to be careful though and assess the weight, size and lean and wind, to determine what level of assistance you need, just the bar, a rope and the bar, a rope and high lift wedge or a winch and wedges. Sense and sensibility are essential!

I looked at your pdf booklet and on page 27 it has a picture of it. The only difference I was taught is the second angled part of the backcut should end up being the same height on the outside edge as the first cut, and should slightly 'underlap' the first cut.

The biggest problem with this cut is not matching or overlapping the cuts inside the tree next to the back of the hinge. If you leave a 'triangle' of uncut wood in that area it is an absolute bugger to get the tree over and then the drama starts...

:greenchainsaw:
Happy Easter everyone.

yep, split level technique would quite probably have been a winner here!

take out your sink (notch) as normal, 45 degrees on normal terrain etc and 20-25% of the tree depth-wise as a pretty reliable guide

make your back cut above the level of the bottom of the sink but not more than an inch higher, but dont cut it full width of the tree, go 2/3 across moving your bar forwards toward the sink leaving at least 10% by diameter for the hinge, the skill here is to keep your bar and saw perfectly level, and move through the wood straight keeping the bar parallel to the hinge and sink at all times.

as soon as the first part of the back cut is completed, get your felling lever or wedge in place. I find a lever most effective a lot of the time. the tree is of course still held in place by the hinge and the 1/3 of wood still left

the second cut is made from the other side of the tree and keeping the bar parallel and flat front to back, tilt the tip of the bar downwards so as to undercut the first cut containing the bar (N.B NO STEEL TOOLS EVER TO BE IN THE SAME CUT AS THE SAW).

if the tree is leaning back, the weight will go onto the bar or wedge but since it is well in the cut the tree should not really 'move' too much

again, if the saw has been kept straight and level, and parallel to the hinge (good stance and moving your whole body is key whilst knowing where the nose is) then a good heave on the bar will send the tree where you want it.


im personally of the opinion that a parallel hinge with even thickness throughout is more important than any rope in the accurate direction of tree felling

 

[joesawer]

Wedging small trees is often more difficult than large trees.
First the wedge is closer to the hinge so you have less leverage and you are moving the tree forward more for the same amount of lift in the back cut. This means more pressure on the wedge. There is less room for the wedge much less for the bar and chain if you try to set the wedge then advance the cut. Small tees seem to spit the wedges out more.
A common and easy trick is to drive your wedge from the side parallel to the hinge. You can make the backcut first then set the wedge then make the face cut being very careful to leave a good hinge. but if you misread the lean or overset the wedge you will have the tree set down as you make the face.
You can put in your face then start your back cut then bore from the back cut through the hinge, making sure to leave the corners, then set the wedge in the bore cut.
If the tree sets back and traps your saw in a small tree you can bore just above the closed kerf and tip the tree forward. G F Brenecks book on tree work available from Bailey's is a wealth of info on this subject and many other useful things.
Having said all that I don't think residential tree work is the place to learn to wedge trees.

 

[Treeman587]

Well, I ain't a tree guy (as clearance likes to point out ), but the physics is pretty straightforward here. The forces involved are simple to diagram. Treeman is right - back lean & front lean are completely different animals, and with back lean, a wedge is putting vertical stress on the hinge. It can't NOT do so. Whether it's enough to cause failure is, of course, dependent on many variables.

I didn't mean to say that wedges are a recipe for disaster. But there are many variables that make for successful wedging. In the woods is one thing. Next to someones house is awholenother(yes that is one word where I come from). Thanks BRM for interpeting my method rather than attacking me like most of us seem to be so readily to do on here sometimes. I like most of you have to assess the situation on a daily basis. I think rope is safer, and most definately faster. To tell you the truth I dont even keep wedges in the dump truck. Every tree we cut is different. And we all came from different schools. My mentoring treeman freaked when he saw my new climbing gear. He asked me how much crap I was going to carry up the tree with me(I just realized that my avitar pic is the first day I was using it). I had to explain that is was a little more modern approach to climbing. Much like some of the felling techniques we discuss can be.