Extreme lean + heavy on lean side + heart rot . . .

[TexasTimbers]

I just posted this in the Arborist 101 section and realize it should probably go here. Sorry for the trouble mods - I'll paste the question below:


I'm about to drop a large ERC. I've dropped hundreds and many with a lot of lean, but this one is big for ERC - and as said what I consider extreme lean. 30° to 35°, and because it grew next to an even larger ERC - a massive one (also with lean but not nearly as bad), it has 80% of it's very large limbs on the lean side. It's most likely also hollow to some degree. I plan to do a bore cut to find out before even notching the tree.

This is a barber chair waiting to happen in my mind. I plan to drop it as I have all leaners that is; 1) birds mouth 2) bore cut leaving ~25% holding wood 3) release holding wood 4) haul ass.

But I wanted to ask if there's a better way. FYI when I say I plan to do a bore cut first, I simply mean a "test" bore in the center of the tree the width of the bar only. Once I assess the degree of rot (if any) I can then make the notch, expand the bore, and release the back wood. I know without seeing it, it's tough to give an opinion but I'd still like to hear your thoughts. I've never dropped one this large, with so much lean, and so much weight on the lean side, in such a confined area with so many widow makers that will likely be raining down. I'm not "scared of it" or I'd just pass on it, but it's got my attention for sure.

 

[Gologit]

Is there room to do a Coos Bay cut?

 

[northmanlogging]

guy could put a wrapper on it just above where you're going to cut, use big like 3/8" chain and a binder to get it tight. Have done this quit a bit. If it wants to go really big, its not gonna matter how big a chain you use though... If possible take all the other scary things down first, widow makers are called that for a reason. I ass,u,me that this is not near any structures etc if sew it might be wise to walk away. Brave and stupid go hand and hand

 

[TexasTimbers]

I read up on that Coos bay cut and it seemed like the thing to do. It worked perfectly. I didn't execute it perfectly but it worked that way anyway. It was my first attempt at one, and since it was 107+ and I was dog tired I can't complain. I can't see needing that particular cut often, but every tool in the box is good to have. I opted for the classic T Coos cut versus the triangle. Because there was a small degree of rot. Not nearly as much as I had suspected.

Thanks for the ideas guys. '

 

[Gologit]

I read up on that Coos bay cut and it seemed like the thing to do. It worked perfectly. I didn't execute it perfectly but it worked that way anyway. It was my first attempt at one, and since it was 107+ and I was dog tired I can't complain. I can't see needing that particular cut often, but every tool in the box is good to have. I opted for the classic T Coos cut versus the triangle. Because there was a small degree of rot. Not nearly as much as I had suspected.

Thanks for the ideas guys. '

Thanks for letting us know how it turned out.

 

[forestryworks]

That juniper tends to snap on the stump.

 

[tramp bushler]

What's a Coos Bay cut?

I'm glad someone answers him I couldn't get past the drop, notch, ect.
I also glad it worked out well! !

 

[pdqdl]

Make a cut on either side of the tree, creating an uncut center that points in the direction of the fall. This removes enough strength from the stem to prevent a barber chair from starting. Then, just back cut the tree nice and fast from the backside, under the presumption that you can cut it off before it breaks off. Some folks take wood off the sides to form a triangle, others make an undercut to give it a hinge...lots of variations.

Problems:

How much to cut on either side is a bit of a guess. Without a lot of experience, I don't think you can predict how much wood to cut off before it might fail at the wrong time.

The Coos bay must be made so that the tree falls in the direction of lean. You are essentially cutting down the tree without any hinge to control sideways travel. A cross wind against the lean would probably turn out badly if you didn't have room for the miss.

This graphic shows variations that leave a hinge, so the sideways control would not be as much of an issue.

 

[tramp bushler]

OK. I guess I have seen that before. Done something similar a lot.

 

[madhatte]

I've had really good results with the Coos Bay cut; lots of times spring-poles too big to bump into relaxing from below come down easily with the triangle. Once in awhile I won't even bother with a face cut if the tree is small enough; when it goes over and tears down toward the stump, it's doing the same as if it had a hinge. Of course, no two trees are the same, so be careful when choosing a cut and don't take anything you read online as gospel.

 

[hammerlogging]

except for whatever madhatte says.

 

[Gologit]

Make a cut on either side of the tree, creating an uncut center that points in the direction of the fall. This removes enough strength from the stem to prevent a barber chair from starting. Then, just back cut the tree nice and fast from the backside, under the presumption that you can cut it off before it breaks off. Some folks take wood off the sides to form a triangle, others make an undercut to give it a hinge...lots of variations.



Problems:

How much to cut on either side is a bit of a guess. Without a lot of experience, I don't think you can predict how much wood to cut off before it might fail at the wrong time.

The Coos bay must be made so that the tree falls in the direction of lean. You are essentially cutting down the tree without any hinge to control sideways travel. A cross wind against the lean would probably turn out badly if you didn't have room for the miss.

This graphic shows variations that leave a hinge, so the sideways control would not be as much of an issue.

Have you ever personally used this cut? You've posted some bad information.

I've never seen or heard of anybody who would " take wood off the sides to form a triangle". If you're using the triangle version of the Coos Bay you cut in from the sides, just like the diagram shows.

A "cross wind against the lean" can be compensated for with a tapered hinge using the T method of the Coos Bay. With either the triangle or the T, and a small face, you still have a hinge to work with. Not much of one
but enough, in most cases, to still have a little control.

And, last but not least...the uncut portion, whether using the T or the triangle can still 'chair on you. It doesn't happen often but it does happen. If you ever find a cut that will, in all cases, prevent the possibility of a 'chair be sure and let the rest of us know.

You did get the part about backing it up fast right.

 

[madhatte]

except for whatever madhatte says.

ESPECIALLY whatever madhatte says! My list of achievements in the way of "Dumb Mistakes" is legendary!

 

[pdqdl]

... You've posted some bad information.
...

Really? You are picking on my post? I said that it takes a great deal of experience to use the cut without making a mistake. I didn't advocate using the cut, nor did I suggest at any point that it was a sure cure for barber-chair. I only answered the damn question.

Nothing you said disagreed with what I posted, so what is your beef? Please quote for me the bad information!

Perhaps you think only west coast loggers with moss growing on their beard know how to cut down trees? I think you are just trying to protect your privately owned forum. Keep the flatlanders out, eh?

By the way, that graphic came from ArboristSite using a simple search on Coos Bay...so I guess you just aren't reading enough here. Quite frankly, it doesn't even show the Coos Bay that I know how to use, but I am not good at drawing this stuff, so I posted it for the guy that asked for the info.

And heck no, I have never done it using a triangle, but madhatte sure seems to have...PRIOR to your post. Like I said, some folks use it. I doubt I ever will.

I don't ever worry about barber-chair. It really isn't a problem in the trees that I work on.

 

[pdqdl]

By the way, here is a link to a thread on another website. Pictures shown of the Coos Bay I described, along with commentary by Beranek. No triangles, no undercuts, and no hinge.

Different strokes for different trees.

????????????.com/showthread.php?9510-That-Coos-Bay-felling-cut-again!&[/url]

Gee! Who would have thought it? AS doesn't want to publish anyone else's website. Search on the last half of the text, you'll find it.

 

[pdqdl]

Took me a long time to find this. This is what I know as a Coos Bay, as described by Beranek in his well known book:

Kindly notice the absence of an undercut, and the lack of hinge for directional control.

 

[sinawali]

That's the way i learn to fell leaning trees. I'm not a professional and i don't say that this is a perfect technic or it is better than the other technics which are posted here!!! It's just an other way.
I don't know the english name of this technic, i draw it

The holding wood by leaning trees must be cut diagonally from the top with outstretched arms to get far away as possible from the tree. The wedges have to place after the second cut, but not by extreme leaning trees, because this would increase the tension.
Here is a video, it is in german, but at the end, he demonstrate the cuts and I think it is understandable

kastenschnitt - YouTube

 

[StihlKiwi]

Really? You are picking on my post? I said that it takes a great deal of experience to use the cut without making a mistake. I didn't advocate using the cut, nor did I suggest at any point that it was a sure cure for barber-chair. I only answered the damn question.

Nothing you said disagreed with what I posted, so what is your beef? Please quote for me the bad information!

Perhaps you think only west coast loggers with moss growing on their beard know how to cut down trees? I think you are just trying to protect your privately owned forum. Keep the flatlanders out, eh?

By the way, that graphic came from ArboristSite using a simple search on Coos Bay...so I guess you just aren't reading enough here. Quite frankly, it doesn't even show the Coos Bay that I know how to use, but I am not good at drawing this stuff, so I posted it for the guy that asked for the info.

And heck no, I have never done it using a triangle, but madhatte sure seems to have...PRIOR to your post. Like I said, some folks use it. I doubt I ever will.

I don't ever worry about barber-chair. It really isn't a problem in the trees that I work on.

You explained something different to what was in the picture you posted with it, something that seems a whole lot less safe.

And while I'm sure west coast loggers aren't the be-all and end-all of logging they seem a lot less touchy about where they work than some others..

 

[Gologit]

Really? You are picking on my post? I said that it takes a great deal of experience to use the cut without making a mistake. I didn't advocate using the cut, nor did I suggest at any point that it was a sure cure for barber-chair. I only answered the damn question.

Nothing you said disagreed with what I posted, so what is your beef? Please quote for me the bad information!

Perhaps you think only west coast loggers with moss growing on their beard know how to cut down trees? I think you are just trying to protect your privately owned forum. Keep the flatlanders out, eh?

By the way, that graphic came from ArboristSite using a simple search on Coos Bay...so I guess you just aren't reading enough here. Quite frankly, it doesn't even show the Coos Bay that I know how to use, but I am not good at drawing this stuff, so I posted it for the guy that asked for the info.

And heck no, I have never done it using a triangle, but madhatte sure seems to have...PRIOR to your post. Like I said, some folks use it. I doubt I ever will.

I don't ever worry about barber-chair. It really isn't a problem in the trees that I work on.

The graphic of the Coos Bay was fine. It's been on AS for a long time and was first posted by GASoline 71. No quarrel with the graphic...or your use of it. It's a fine example and it's accurate.

Your description of how to cut was what I took exception to. I still take exception to it. Your description of how to use the Coos Bay was just flat wrong.
It was obvious from your post that you'd never really used a Coos Bay. You didn't let that stop you from offering your own idea of how the cuts should be made...wrong as they were. People who don't know any better might have tried your flawed methods.

I know that you were trying to be helpful . That's appreciated. It might be for the best if you stuck to giving advice on lawn mowing and trimming shrubbery...they're more your field of expertise.

 

[imagineero]

Took me a long time to find this. This is what I know as a Coos Bay, as described by Beranek in his well known book:

Kindly notice the absence of an undercut, and the lack of hinge for directional control.

No need to get shirty mate ;-)

This pic is what a coos bay is. That earlier pic is not a coos bay at all and could be best described as variants at most. A proper coos bay is a good safe cut for leaners, but has little control due to the lack of hinge. Putting a hinge in doesn't really help honestly, due to the lean. The first few times I used the coos bay I couldn't help but put a small face in there, due to habit and feeling that I wouldn't have control. I realised pretty quick that it did nothing and only made the situation worse.

With a coos bay you want to carefully assess the tree for side lean, and try to go perpendicular to it. If you can read the lean right, you can take out a whole lot of the side wood, as much as 80% in some cases from my experience. The more you take out, the more you reduce the risk of barber chairing, but you dont want to go too far. Matching the cuts up isn't as crtical as you might think. When you make the back cut you often only get as little as a quick snip before it explodes. This is a great, useful practical cut in the right circumstances, and one that every faller ought to have in his quiver.

I highly recommend purchasing GB's DVD's, great useful info there and worth every penny. Can be bought through baileys also.

And no offense mate, but there's nothing about "trees" in "PDQ lawn and landscape". I give you credit, but you gotta give full time loggers some credit when you jump into the logging forum while advertising yourself as a lawn guy. Not sayin' you don't do trees, it's just that it's like the reception that you'd get if you operated a single handed day trawler and walked into a bar full of alaskan crab guys who just got back to shore and tried to compare techniques. Yeah, you're all fisherman, but... oh well, nevermind. I'l just grab another beer.

Shaun