Falling pics 11/25/09

[rwoods]

I realize you guys and gals have been talking about getting a rotted/hollow tree down.

I have a related question:

What is the collective opinion (or multiple opinions) on directionally felling trees with relatively weak wood that have crown weight, sweep, or lean the wrong way?

I can think back on pine and cottonwood that DID NOT behave as I had thought they would, in that they "split the difference" with my face cut, even with adequate holding wood.

Possible answer:

Is the correct explanation for this that the amount of holding wood was probably not enough, so that the tree broke off the stump too soon?

Possible solution:

Use a "soft Dutchman " to turn the tree while keeping it on the stump?

I have used a "regular Dutchman" before, so I know they can work; saw a video posted here on the "soft" technique but it was in Doug fir. I also realize that there are more things to consider than species, such as the amount of weight going the wrong way as well as the size of the tree.

I added two pics for an an example. This 40 in.(stump ht.) by 80 ft. stub (p-pine completely brushed out and topped) split the difference the wrong way, going diagonally over the pavement instead of parallel to it. I had about 2 - 3 in. of holding wood and a rope tied right at the top and to a winch at about a 30 degree angle on the upside of the lean, relative to the lay I wanted parallel to the pavement.

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The stub fell as predicted at first, and then started going towards the driveway about 1/3 of the way down. I don't have any pics of the aftermath because i was mightily p.o.'d

Every tree is different, of course. But if it helps here is a description of the tree that I was trying to turn. It did turn with very little holding wood in an unintended hinge - just not where I wanted it to turn. As aptly put by tramp bushler my tree was a train wreck to begin with. It had only two branches. I estimated one to have 2/3 of the influence on the lean and the other with the remaining 1/3. My goal was to get the tree entirely in the field to the right (bottom of diagram) as I was told that was the tree owner's field and no permission had been sought from the owner of the field on the left (top of diagram). I figured if I could neutralize the 1/3 it would fall on point with the 2/3 which should accomplish my goal. Unfortunately, this meant I had to face cut the strong side and back cut from the weak/injured side of the tree. The face wedge was solid but it looks that I cut it to the edge of the then unknown rotted center (in hindsight I should have examined the center of the face cut but I didn't). I was just finishing my first thinning cut (my second cut) when it let go. Attached is a drawing that will better explain it. When the trunk split, the back side of the second cut became an uneven hinge with the thick side to the left (top of the diagram) and the thin side being to the right. This pulled the tree to the left - backwards of what I was wanting. The jagged line is where the trunk split. The red is the more than anticipated rot.

If any of you have more advice for me, I would welcome it as well.

As a somewhat humorous side note, where my tree fell was no big deal after all, as I later learned from the tree owner that his field was actually the one on the left. By then the field on the right was already rooted up pretty fierce from two tractors loading wood and pushing brush piles. Ron

View attachment 277406

 

[twochains]

... was not spectacular.

The suspense has grown so much so, that it might as well be scope footage from "the grassy knoll"

 

[mile9socounty]

We want a video!!!

 

[TreeGuyHR]

Every tree is different, of course. But if it helps here is a description of the tree that I was trying to turn. It did turn with very little holding wood in an unintended hinge - just not where I wanted it to turn. As aptly put by tramp bushler my tree was a train wreck to begin with. It had only two branches. I estimated one to have 2/3 of the influence on the lean and the other with the remaining 1/3. My goal was to get the tree entirely in the field to the right (bottom of diagram) as I was told that was the tree owner's field and no permission had been sought from the owner of the field on the left (top of diagram). I figured if I could neutralize the 1/3 it would fall on point with the 2/3 which should accomplish my goal. Unfortunately, this meant I had to face cut the strong side and back cut from the weak/injured side of the tree. The face wedge was solid but it looks that I cut it to the edge of the then unknown rotted center (in hindsight I should have examined the center of the face cut but I didn't). I was just finishing my first thinning cut (my second cut) when it let go. Attached is a drawing that will better explain it. When the trunk split, the back side of the second cut became an uneven hinge with the thick side to the left (top of the diagram) and the thin side being to the right. This pulled the tree to the left - backwards of what I was wanting. The jagged line is where the trunk split. The red is the more than anticipated rot.

If any of you have more advice for me, I would welcome it as well.

As a somewhat humorous side note, where my tree fell was no big deal after all, as I later learned from the tree owner that his field was actually the one on the left. By then the field on the right was already rooted up pretty fierce from two tractors loading wood and pushing brush piles. Ron

View attachment 277406

Well, you made fewer mistakes than I had! I guess it might have occurred to me to use a drill or increment borer to check such a tree to make sure it went into the right field, instead of the wrong field (which was the right field -- whatever. Sounds like one of my days!

So, I get it that I screwed the pooch with the big pine stub -- but the cracked pine that the logger took down after i hung a cable in it for him worked according to plan -- it must have been the screaming he did at the guy driving the CAT (actually, a John Deer 'dozer) that made it go faster!

 

[northmanlogging]

Sorta kinda related topic, supposedly there is a way to "sound out" hollow spots in a tree before you start cutting on it, no boring necessary. I've only recently read about it but I can see where a guy could maybe hear differences in trunk density from smacking it around with an axe. No Idea how well it works, mayhaps some of the moss backs on here have heard of or witnessed first hand, and can tell us all how not to do it???:msp_confused::confused2::eek2::msp_smile:

 

[OlympicYJ]

Sorta kinda related topic, supposedly there is a way to "sound out" hollow spots in a tree before you start cutting on it, no boring necessary. I've only recently read about it but I can see where a guy could maybe hear differences in trunk density from smacking it around with an axe. No Idea how well it works, mayhaps some of the moss backs on here have heard of or witnessed first hand, and can tell us all how not to do it???:msp_confused::confused2::eek2::msp_smile:

It does work. Had a cruiser tell me about it one time. If they're pretty hollow you can tell but if theres just a lil rot in the but not so much. From what I gathered it took a lil practice. I guess just whack em with your axe before ya plunge it to see what kinda rot ya have and might be able to develop an ear for it :cool2:

I know it doesn't work on pecker poles... ya hit em and they feel solid till the top breaks out an hits ya on the tin lid... then you feel pretty dense...

 

[northmanlogging]

I'll have to try and remember that, its one of those things that sits in the back of my mind taking up useless space, but oft times forgotten... got a good sized Hemlock job coming up in the spring and there is bound to be a few rotters in the mix... we'll see if I can remember:msp_confused:

 

[madhatte]

Uggh, I can smell it from here. Even the chips look nasty.

 

[TreeGuyHR]

Sorta kinda related topic, supposedly there is a way to "sound out" hollow spots in a tree before you start cutting on it, no boring necessary. I've only recently read about it but I can see where a guy could maybe hear differences in trunk density from smacking it around with an axe. No Idea how well it works, mayhaps some of the moss backs on here have heard of or witnessed first hand, and can tell us all how not to do it???:msp_confused::confused2::eek2::msp_smile:

You definitely need a big hollow. OTH, thick bark can effectively muffle the blow, and you don't here that hollow sound.

I did a risk assessment of this pine, going so far as to climb it to check out the heart rot in an old lightning scar, but missed the significant decay in the base (no conks). I didn't beat it with the blunt end of an axe, but thi sdecay may not have revealed itself that way, especially because it diminshed rapidly with height (probably brown cubical butt rot (Phaeolus scwhweinitzii)The tree was removed because the owner thought that the lean was increasing, which I had mentioned as something to monitor.

View attachment 277440View attachment 277441

OTH, (got lots of those), this Doug-fir had multiple white speck-rot conks (Phellinus pini), but the decay was limited.

View attachment 277442View attachment 277443View attachment 277444

 

[madhatte]

To make matters more frustrating, while the Brown Cubical and White Speck rots often have visible, long-lasting fruiting bodies to help ID them by, which is a bonus, if you're after the early ID of root rots? Not so much. Laminated root rot has essentially no visible fruiting body, and Shoestring rot has a fruiting body that only shows up every couple of years and only sticks around when it bothers to show up at all. Trees infected with these diseases are most easily identified at the stump or by the rootball once they've been blown over, often with no visible symptoms. Whether you're looking at a yard tree or at a disease pocket in a forest, it pays to take the time to autopsy whatever material you have available in order to determine causes of mortality and make sound decisions as to what needs done next. I know of at least one sanitation cut where Laminated root rot was misidentified and the young stand was cut early with no benefit to anything.

 

[TreeGuyHR]

To make matters more frustrating, while the Brown Cubical and White Speck rots often have visible, long-lasting fruiting bodies to help ID them by, which is a bonus, if you're after the early ID of root rots? Not so much. Laminated root rot has essentially no visible fruiting body, and Shoestring rot has a fruiting body that only shows up every couple of years and only sticks around when it bothers to show up at all. Trees infected with these diseases are most easily identified at the stump or by the rootball once they've been blown over, often with no visible symptoms. Whether you're looking at a yard tree or at a disease pocket in a forest, it pays to take the time to autopsy whatever material you have available in order to determine causes of mortality and make sound decisions as to what needs done next. I know of at least one sanitation cut where Laminated root rot was misidentified and the young stand was cut early with no benefit to anything.

Yes.

And I know of a certain College in WA state that paid a significant price to some consultants to put together a campus tree health plan, including a schedule for removals. I was invited to put on a workshop for a group of students who wanted to know more about hazard assessment (that we now call risk assessment). As part of that , we checked several of the trees assigned ratings in the plan, and found a poor correlation between what we found and the ratings of the plan -- in BOTH directions (too high and too low.

This caused a bit of turmoil at the College, and the fur apparently flew. I don't have a good explanation, other than that the people collecting data on the trees (hundreds of trees) may not have followed a consistent sampling protocol, and relied only on crown characteristics (perhaps in a "windshield drive-by) in some cases; leading to completely hollow trees given low ratings and other trees with no defect other than a thin crown assigned high ratings.

For example, if my memory serves, a cedar in the middle of a parking lot had a moderate rating that had Pileated Woodpecker holes, and about a 10% shell thickness; in another area, a Doug-fir that had been removed had no laminated root rot and firs nearby had high risk ratings for laminated root rot and were scheduled for removal soon (didn't get to examining those). The fir trees were in an area that had recent construction, and we have all seen "crown constructionitis" from soil disturbance. There were root rot pockets on the campus, but that area was apparently not one of them based on what I saw.

 

[paccity]

another stinker today. the rebuild on ol roachy is doing fine,.

and a squirrel met its maker on this one.

 

[rwoods]

And why is that little sign structure still standing???? :msp_smile: Ron

 

[paccity]

And why is that little sign structure still standing???? :msp_smile: Ron

cus i missed it .:msp_wink: dented the asphalt good though. which is ok because there re paving it anyway.

 

[madhatte]

dented the asphalt good though

Which reminds me, I have a question for the group.

There is an alder a friend wants me to cut from his yard. It's got a pretty heavy lean, but that doesn't really concern me too much since it's leaning where I want it to go, mostly. Problem is, it's leaning out over the driveway, where he's got asphalt over soft-ish soil. If I just flop it down there like a dead fish, it's got a pretty decent chance of leaving a mark. Question is this: If I jump it off the stump as far as I can get it to go (thinking a Humboldt, fairly steep face angle, steeper snipe), how much of the energy that would be directed straight down when it hits can I deflect onto the stump and out into lateral movement? I'm pretty sure the amount will be "non-zero", but I can't really see the math in my head. I'm not at all worried about messing up the grass on the other side since it's just sort of a field that gets mowed sometimes. My only worry is the asphalt, and really, the crown might just bridge it anyway so I may be fartin' in the wind anyway.

WHAT SAY YE, folks?

 

[RandyMac]

Which reminds me, I have a question for the group.

There is an alder a friend wants me to cut from his yard. It's got a pretty heavy lean, but that doesn't really concern me too much since it's leaning where I want it to go, mostly. Problem is, it's leaning out over the driveway, where he's got asphalt over soft-ish soil. If I just flop it down there like a dead fish, it's got a pretty decent chance of leaving a mark. Question is this: If I jump it off the stump as far as I can get it to go (thinking a Humboldt, fairly steep face angle, steeper snipe), how much of the energy that would be directed straight down when it hits can I deflect onto the stump and out into lateral movement? I'm pretty sure the amount will be "non-zero", but I can't really see the math in my head. I'm not at all worried about messing up the grass on the other side since it's just sort of a field that gets mowed sometimes. My only worry is the asphalt, and really, the crown might just bridge it anyway so I may be fartin' in the wind anyway.

WHAT SAY YE, folks?

toss a few hippies into the lay.

 

[forestryworks]

toss a few hippies into the lay.

Or old tires.

Either way, don't miss your lay!

 

[paccity]

Which reminds me, I have a question for the group.

There is an alder a friend wants me to cut from his yard. It's got a pretty heavy lean, but that doesn't really concern me too much since it's leaning where I want it to go, mostly. Problem is, it's leaning out over the driveway, where he's got asphalt over soft-ish soil. If I just flop it down there like a dead fish, it's got a pretty decent chance of leaving a mark. Question is this: If I jump it off the stump as far as I can get it to go (thinking a Humboldt, fairly steep face angle, steeper snipe), how much of the energy that would be directed straight down when it hits can I deflect onto the stump and out into lateral movement? I'm pretty sure the amount will be "non-zero", but I can't really see the math in my head. I'm not at all worried about messing up the grass on the other side since it's just sort of a field that gets mowed sometimes. My only worry is the asphalt, and really, the crown might just bridge it anyway so I may be fartin' in the wind anyway.

WHAT SAY YE, folks?

how big is the crown,? whats the diameter? i would leave it on the stump and transfer most to the crown. might break it , but i don't think your worried about that.

 

[madhatte]

It's a pretty wide crown, being a yard tree and all. Maybe keeping it on the stump is the best thing to do. I still kinda like the idea of just jumping it across the driveway and letting it slip-n-slide down the hill toward the pig pen. Would be a damned sight more dramatic, for sure.

EDIT: pretty sure I could find a few stray hippies lurking around Oly, hmmm...

 

[RandyMac]

You won't want a steep face if you want to jump it.