tramp bushler
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NorthMan ; that looks like a perilous place to pack a couple falling saws.
Falling pics 11/25/09
- Thread starter Burvol
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I left the house like that... Job was on the other side of the neighborhood... saws where removed once I arrived :msp_smile:
TreeGuyHR
ArboristSite Guru
I realize you guys and gals have been talking about getting a rotted/hollow tree down.
I have a related question:
What is the collective opinion (or multiple opinions) on directionally felling trees with relatively weak wood that have crown weight, sweep, or lean the wrong way?
I can think back on pine and cottonwood that DID NOT behave as I had thought they would, in that they "split the difference" with my face cut, even with adequate holding wood.
Possible answer:
Is the correct explanation for this that the amount of holding wood was probably not enough, so that the tree broke off the stump too soon?
Possible solution:
Use a "soft Dutchman " to turn the tree while keeping it on the stump?
I have used a "regular Dutchman" before, so I know they can work; saw a video posted here on the "soft" technique but it was in Doug fir. I also realize that there are more things to consider than species, such as the amount of weight going the wrong way as well as the size of the tree.
I added two pics for an an example. This 40 in.(stump ht.) by 80 ft. stub (p-pine completely brushed out and topped) split the difference the wrong way, going diagonally over the pavement instead of parallel to it. I had about 2 - 3 in. of holding wood and a rope tied right at the top and to a winch at about a 30 degree angle on the upside of the lean, relative to the lay I wanted parallel to the pavement.
View attachment 277290View attachment 277291
The stub fell as predicted at first, and then started going towards the driveway about 1/3 of the way down. I don't have any pics of the aftermath because i was mightily p.o.'d
I have a related question:
What is the collective opinion (or multiple opinions) on directionally felling trees with relatively weak wood that have crown weight, sweep, or lean the wrong way?
I can think back on pine and cottonwood that DID NOT behave as I had thought they would, in that they "split the difference" with my face cut, even with adequate holding wood.
Possible answer:
Is the correct explanation for this that the amount of holding wood was probably not enough, so that the tree broke off the stump too soon?
Possible solution:
Use a "soft Dutchman " to turn the tree while keeping it on the stump?
I have used a "regular Dutchman" before, so I know they can work; saw a video posted here on the "soft" technique but it was in Doug fir. I also realize that there are more things to consider than species, such as the amount of weight going the wrong way as well as the size of the tree.
I added two pics for an an example. This 40 in.(stump ht.) by 80 ft. stub (p-pine completely brushed out and topped) split the difference the wrong way, going diagonally over the pavement instead of parallel to it. I had about 2 - 3 in. of holding wood and a rope tied right at the top and to a winch at about a 30 degree angle on the upside of the lean, relative to the lay I wanted parallel to the pavement.
View attachment 277290View attachment 277291
The stub fell as predicted at first, and then started going towards the driveway about 1/3 of the way down. I don't have any pics of the aftermath because i was mightily p.o.'d
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For me its a little guess and by golly. But I try to leave allot more holding wood since the middle is all sorts of rotten you can only count on the outside edges. I imagine a soft dutch or maybe even a sizwheel would help. But with any tree that's very rotten its a scary proposition to try and swing em or even wedging em over can be dicey. If at all possible rig em and pull em, if you have the room and traction to do so.
treeguy, from those two pics I'm not seeing any reason that you shouldn't have gotten that to lay right where you wanted it, unless it was totally rotten. It is possible it leans more than it looks like, I was trying to judge it off the other trees in the pictures so I maybe wrong. What was the wind like?
I've never really had pine or cotton wood give me trouble, other than heavy branches to one side kind of stuff, but the holding wood has always done its job if I did mine. (And I always do my job.
)
Mr. HE
I've never really had pine or cotton wood give me trouble, other than heavy branches to one side kind of stuff, but the holding wood has always done its job if I did mine. (And I always do my job.
)Mr. HE
TreeGuyHR
ArboristSite Guru
treeguy, from those two pics I'm not seeing any reason that you shouldn't have gotten that to lay right where you wanted it, unless it was totally rotten. It is possible it leans more than it looks like, I was trying to judge it off the other trees in the pictures so I maybe wrong. What was the wind like?
I've never really had pine or cotton wood give me trouble, other than heavy branches to one side kind of stuff, but the holding wood has always done its job if I did mine. (And I always do my job.
Mr. HE
Well, it surprised me too. I did not cut my corners and I had a clean Humboldt face cut, but the tree did have both a lean and sweep directed 90 degrees from the lay I wanted. My interpretation at the time was just not enough holding wood.
Another thought I had was that the haul rope should have been at 180 to the lean and tied off to an anchor (instead of my truck winch) to help direct the stub once it did break off. I pounded a wedge, had my guy start the winch, and the line went slack almost immediately -- meaning it was totally out of the equation at that point. The stub fell right in the middle of the angle between the direction that the weight wanted to take the tree and the haul rope, instead of a few degrees short of the rope.
I talked about this tree before on Arboristsite; just wondering if anyone had some more thoughts about the amount of holding wood and whether or not a Dutchman would have helped. I might just go back and take a pic of the stump -- this pine still bugs me!
tramp bushler
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Siswheel's work good any time you want to keep the tree attached to the stump for a longer period of time. .
My practice is if a tree can reach and destroy something I'm being paid to NOT hit . I climb it and take it down from the top, or I rig it and pull it and will put pendalum lines in it.
There is really no magic bullet in falling a tree. At some point gravity or wind is going to gain total control of the tree. That can only be controlled by lines put in the right place and used right.
Pendelum lines are like guy lines and they need be tail holted so they can do their job.
My practice is if a tree can reach and destroy something I'm being paid to NOT hit . I climb it and take it down from the top, or I rig it and pull it and will put pendalum lines in it.
There is really no magic bullet in falling a tree. At some point gravity or wind is going to gain total control of the tree. That can only be controlled by lines put in the right place and used right.
Pendelum lines are like guy lines and they need be tail holted so they can do their job.
At what point did the holding wood break? Reason I ask is in a situation like that, where I want the tree in a certain spot to protect something, I often use a really wide open face and often go just a little deeper than the standard 1/3 depth. On some of them you have to keep the "power steering" on until they hit the ground. Some of the trickier ones I've swung were still moving sideways as they hit the ground and the hinge didn't snap until just as they touched down. If you use this get well away from the stump, because that hinge holding on like that can send some funny whip through the tree and toss the butt sideways, or I suppose even backwards, but I've never seen that myself.
With a rope up in the top to pull it where you want it to go it helps to layout your plan. If you are tying off to a stump or truck you run the rope out to where you want the tree to end up. Give yourself enough to tie off with and now you know that as it falls the rope will pull the tree to that point. I've done it where when the tree started the rope was slack and then got tight as it fell, there is of course the risk of snaping the rope if it loads up too fast and heavy, but you don't always have an anchor point right were you need it. Pre-loading tension on the rope can help too, if you can set it up that way, but that can pull holding wood too early in the fall, so you have to watch for that.
But it sounds like you've already figured the rope part of it out. I'm just sharing how I've done it, because I hate it when a rope doesn't work like it should.
I would say the face cut was your problem, hard to say for sure what you should have used since I wasn't there. But a simple Humbolt and back cut probably wouldn't have been enough, unless the rope was pulling on the way down. A dutchman or as mentioned a siswheel would have made a huge difference based on the pics and what you've said about it.
Anyway, hope this rambling helps you some. I know what it's like to keep playing something over trying to figure out what you could have done different. Matter of fact I just did a welding repair on a cast aluminum head that while it works, isn't very pretty, I'm still thinking about how I could have changed the prep, or gas mix, or what have you, to get a better looking weld. Oh, well, for now I need more coffee.
Mr. HE
With a rope up in the top to pull it where you want it to go it helps to layout your plan. If you are tying off to a stump or truck you run the rope out to where you want the tree to end up. Give yourself enough to tie off with and now you know that as it falls the rope will pull the tree to that point. I've done it where when the tree started the rope was slack and then got tight as it fell, there is of course the risk of snaping the rope if it loads up too fast and heavy, but you don't always have an anchor point right were you need it. Pre-loading tension on the rope can help too, if you can set it up that way, but that can pull holding wood too early in the fall, so you have to watch for that.
But it sounds like you've already figured the rope part of it out. I'm just sharing how I've done it, because I hate it when a rope doesn't work like it should.
I would say the face cut was your problem, hard to say for sure what you should have used since I wasn't there. But a simple Humbolt and back cut probably wouldn't have been enough, unless the rope was pulling on the way down. A dutchman or as mentioned a siswheel would have made a huge difference based on the pics and what you've said about it.
Anyway, hope this rambling helps you some. I know what it's like to keep playing something over trying to figure out what you could have done different. Matter of fact I just did a welding repair on a cast aluminum head that while it works, isn't very pretty, I'm still thinking about how I could have changed the prep, or gas mix, or what have you, to get a better looking weld. Oh, well, for now I need more coffee.
Mr. HE
TreeGuyHR
ArboristSite Guru
Another comforting thought is that maybe you didn't do anything wrong, it was just your turn to be humbled by the tree gods.:hmm3grin2orange:
Now I really am going to get some coffee.
Mr. HE
I think I am following what you are saying here. The tree's holding wood broke relatively early in the fall, but because I had the rope at about 120 degrees from the lean, it only corrected the fall about half way, to 60 degrees, and I needed to go to 90 degrees. If the stub fell at exactly that angle, it would have laid down parallel to the blacktop and about 6 ft. away.
I guess I tempted the tree Gods. I should have thought harder about several facts:
This tree (stub) had to fall close to a target;
It was tall and heavy;
It had a significant sweep and lean!
Then I should have asked myself what the haul rope was FOR -- it wasn't to get the tree moving (that was the easy part -- it was to direct its fall. Therefore, the bast place for it was opposite the lean, not at some place between that spot and the lay.
In fact, I had worked with a logger earlier that year (I nailed the driveway last Spring); I hung a cable in a pine leaning even more than this one and right towards a house; it also also had a split at the base that had recently increased. He faced it about 120 degrees from the lean, made a back cut leaving about 30% as holding wood, and had his small CAT drive away ( it was parked 180 degrees from the lean with a tight line on the drum). The tree went a little past straight up, broke off, and fell about 90 degrees to the lean in a perfect side hill.
Somehow, that experience was not on my mind when I pasted the blacktop a few months later. At least I missed the phone box and fire hydrant that were on the FAR side of the pavement, so I wasn't punished that badly
I have some pics of that other pine, a little blurry 'cause it was snowing out.
View attachment 277339View attachment 277340View attachment 277341View attachment 277342View attachment 277343
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TreeGuyHR
ArboristSite Guru
I think I am following what you are saying here. The tree's holding wood broke relatively early in the fall, but because I had the rope at about 120 degrees from the lean, it only corrected the fall about half way, to 60 degrees, and I needed to go to 90 degrees. If the stub fell at exactly that angle, it would have laid down parallel to the blacktop and about 6 ft. away.
I guess I tempted the tree Gods. I should have thought harder about several facts:
This tree (stub) had to fall close to a target;
It was tall and heavy;
It had a significant sweep and lean!
Then I should have asked hat the haul rope was FOR -- it wasn't to get the tree moving (that was the easy part -- it was to direct its fall. Therefore, the bast place for it was opposite the lean, not at some place between that spot and the lay.
In fact, I had worked with a logger earlier that year (I nailed the driveway last Spring); I hung a cable in a pine leaning even more than this one and right towards a house; it also also had a split at the base that had recently increased. He faced it about 120 degrees from the lean, made a back cut leaving about 30% as holding wood, and had his small CAT drive away ( it was parked 180 degrees from the lean with a tight line on the drum). The tree went a little past straight up, broke off, and fell about 90 degrees to the lean in a perfect side hill.
Somehow, that experience was not on my mind when I pasted the blacktop a few months later. At least I missed the phone box and fire hydrant that were on the FAR side of the pavement, so I wasn't punished that badly
I have some pics of that other pine, a little blurry 'cause it was snowing out.
View attachment 277339View attachment 277340View attachment 277341View attachment 277342View attachment 277343
Couple more, before and after. You can see that the faller left some holding wood on each side of the pre-existing crack, which pulled out of the stump (along with a large root).
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paccity
Addicted to ArboristSite
more stink, 12 more to go.
paccity
Addicted to ArboristSite
[video=facebook;565084343502062]http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=565084343502062[/video] did not shot that vid , i'm down there some wear.
Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
Can't see the video cause of privacy settings.
twochains
Addicted to ArboristSite
Arghhh...we can't see it! :hmm3grin2orange:
paccity
Addicted to ArboristSite
changed the settings on fb. work now?
twochains
Addicted to ArboristSite
Nope... Do you have the vid on a you tube channel you could link to? Are we going to have to friend you to get to see the vid??? 
lullz
Do you have the vid on a you tube channel you could link to? Are we going to have to friend you to get to see the vid??? lullz
Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
We're friends on FB, and I can't see the video -- weird.
You must have it set to "super secret".
paccity
Addicted to ArboristSite
it's set on public? tried to load it to my utube but it would not let me . i'll work on it . was not spectacular.
