Federal Airtight 264CCL Questions

[LesW]

Hi, folks...New member.

I also have a Federal Airtight insert, and have some questions.

It's virtually identical to Wood Doctor's insert...just a few minor differences,
like no "above fire" damper on the upper left side.

I bought it used a while back for $75, built a new steel backplate for it,
(the original was burned through) and put in a new cat someone gave me.

I also built a variable speed blower for it. There's basically zero heat if the blower isn't running.

The thing works, but I'm kinda wondering why it doesn't put out more heat.
Comparing it to an electric heater , I would say that it puts out about twice as much. So 3000 watts or so....about 10,000 BTU/hr.

Is there some trick to running these things? I'm not sure if I'm lighting off the cat since it has no thermometer. Often the fire will go out if I engage the cat anyway, even though I have HUGE draft from a high chimney.

For other parts of my house and business I use pellet stoves. Am I just spoiled? With those I get 50,000 BTU/hr from a 3x3 inch burn pot.

Anyway, glad to join this forum. I have several thousand trees on the property.

Les

 

[Wood Doctor]

This is a fireplace insert? Sounds like that is the main problem. You are sending most of your heat up the chimney. Note that my stove extends into the room 16" or so and radiates heat off the top and sides. Is yours extending that far out? If it's an insert, it is not.

My 288 actually could be used as a free standing stove and that would increase the heat output at least 50%. However, that would also overheat the downstairs area of the house because it kicks out 55,000 BTU/hr as a free-standing stove.

It appears you are not getting the full benefit from the wood heat because it is an insert and without the blower, most of the convection heat is being lost up the chimney. Your blower is all that you have to help capture some of that. When my stove's secondary combustion kicks in and heats the top surface, that doubles or triples efficiency and heat output. The flue gases will sometimes jump to as high as 1400 F if the draft is there. I usually run between 1000 and 1200 F.

 

[LesW]

It looks virtually identical to the picture you posted of yours. The casting details, doors, almost everything.

Not sure of the model #...it's hidden I guess.

It does stick out about 16 inches at the thickest part, but the box protrudes about 12 inches mostly.

It might be smaller than yours...it's 22x22. Next smaller model?

I laid a meat thermometer on the top at the square cover plate that lifts off.
Not well thermally coupled, but I only get about 250 degreesF. Other stoves i have had got much much hotter. Hot enough to burn things.

I just wonder if i'm operating it properly. Without the cat all dampers are closed...just the seal leakage is more than enough air...perhaps too much.
With the cat engaged I have to open the side damper a lot or the fire will go out. Bottom front damper stays closed per instructions.The cat really restricts the flow. You use the upper chamber but without the cat, right? I wonder if that would help If I tried that. I have very little smoke.

My wood is well dried white and red oak...split and 3 years in the woodshed.
My RF moisture meter says under 12% moisture.

I could sure use a bit more heat...getting nailed with the artic air mass pulled down due to the Greenland block weather phenominon...below zero chill factor expected here in the southern mountains. I'm in a drafty old house too.

Edit: after re reading you post your getting about 25000 btu/hr as set up? I'd be happy with that. Is yours the 22x22" size?

Les

 

[LesW]

A little update...

This morning it was fairly cold...16 degrees. Will be single digits tonight...and windy.

So I loaded the thing up with more wood this time...split wood filling about 2/3 of the firebox (still lots of airspace).

After a while I engaged the cat and it finally lit. It is glowing red. I was able to close all the air dampers, since I have so much gasket leakage.

Much more heat now. The meat thermometer reads 500 degrees on the top, and it's not even in good contact with the cast iron.

My guess is that it's puttiing out 15-20,000 BTU/hr now.

Turns out this is the smallest stove, the 224. Smaller than Wood doctor's.

Considering the size I guess this amount of heat is ok. It will heat a large room in this draftly old house. Will use lots of wood too. The small size means refilling often.I think it could use a seal job...that might help.

And yes I'll bet it would put out more if I had it free standing.

I do have two other stoves besides the pellet ones, but I took them out for safety/decor reasons. One is a big Fisher...it puts out a huge amount of heat,
enough for a whole house. It's a bad creosote maker though.

Les

 

[raybonz]

A little update...

This morning it was fairly cold...16 degrees. Will be single digits tonight...and windy.

So I loaded the thing up with more wood this time...split wood filling about 2/3 of the firebox (still lots of airspace).

After a while I engaged the cat and it finally lit. It is glowing red. I was able to close all the air dampers, since I have so much gasket leakage.

Much more heat now. The meat thermometer reads 500 degrees on the top, and it's not even in good contact with the cast iron.

My guess is that it's puttiing out 15-20,000 BTU/hr now.

Turns out this is the smallest stove, the 224. Smaller than Wood doctor's.

Considering the size I guess this amount of heat is ok. It will heat a large room in this draftly old house. Will use lots of wood too. The small size means refilling often.I think it could use a seal job...that might help.

And yes I'll bet it would put out more if I had it free standing.

I do have two other stoves besides the pellet ones, but I took them out for safety/decor reasons. One is a big Fisher...it puts out a huge amount of heat,
enough for a whole house. It's a bad creosote maker though.

Les

Your stove info: 9,100-34,800 BTU's/hr according to the manual.. Here is a link to the PDF Manual which covers models FA224,264 & 288:

http://www.firewood.jp/abc/CDW 90_93_2181_2183_2184.pdf

The link is in Japan but the manual is in english..

Ray

 

[LesW]

Thanks for the link, Ray. Very helpful.

BTU range seems about right.

This morning it's 11 degrees. Can't seem to get the cat to light off though. I'll chuck some more wood in like yesterday. Seems only a very hot fire with a full load will light it. If it doesn't light, heat output is very low.

I calculated a rough overall efficiency for this old stove, but you don't want to know. It's not good. But hey, it's better than freezing!

Les

 

[raybonz]

Thanks for the link, Ray. Very helpful.

BTU range seems about right.

This morning it's 11 degrees. Can't seem to get the cat to light off though. I'll chuck some more wood in like yesterday. Seems only a very hot fire with a full load will light it. If it doesn't light, heat output is very low.

I calculated a rough overall efficiency for this old stove, but you don't want to know. It's not good. But hey, it's better than freezing!

Les

You're welcome Les! This is a very good forum but I suggest you check out http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/ because you'll find loads of answers from others with the exact same stove as you have and ideas on how to get the best performance.. It's important to get a good fire going with DRY wood to establish a good draft then leave your secondary air open a couple turns when engage your cat...Once the cat goes over 500 degrees you can adjust your air from there.. If your cat is past its prime it may need to be replaced and they go for about $100.00 but are worth every penny... I clean my cat with a vacuum cleaner with the soft brush attachment then inspect the honeycomb for any blockage.. If the cat has pieces missing or is crumbling it's time for a new one.. I heat my 1632 sq. ft. house here in Mass. 24/7 with this stove on about 2.5-3 cords a yr. and get overnight burns however your stove is smaller and may not be able to do this...

Good Luck!
Ray

 

[bsearcey]

Fa224

Les. You have the exact model I have (not above fire damper). Funny enough a guy recently PMd me about it and had the original manual for it. You won't find it on the web. Believe me I tried. If you want I copy I can get it to you.

I agree the stove is small and does require more filling than the larger big brother, but my stove puts out alot of heat. I've been heating 1800 sqft with it since around Thanksgiving. I haven't hooked my blower up to it yet because it needs some work, but I'm sure that will make an even bigger difference. In the manual I have the efficiency testing for this stove has BTU output for low and high burns at 24,421 and 89,316 respectively. I've attached this page from the manual. Also check out the burn times. Can't really say I've seen results like this, but it could be possible I guess.

Jason: Seems to me I remember seeing something about the refractory package in a manual or something. It was optional and from what I remember increased effeciency by only a percent or 2. Not much. You certainly don't need it to run the stove.

Glad to see more people posting about these stoves.

 

[bsearcey]

Using the stove pipe damper

Any of you guys use the stove pipe damper? The reason I ask is because when I installed my stove (insert installation) I put the damper in the in flue collar on the stove. Until this weekend I've never messed with it and always left it completely open. During burns I would have virtually no smoke coming out of the chimney. This is of course with the cat engaged.

This weekend after reading this new manual I got. I've started closing the stove pipe damper when I engage the cat. Everything else about my operation is the same as before (getting up to temps and what not), but now I close the SP damper. Well there is all kinds of smoke coming out now. Especially in the first 30 mins of closing everything down. It's dirty smoke too. I know the cat is engaged (glowing), so I don't really understand where the smoke is coming from. Theoretically, by closing the SP damper I'm slowing the draw up my chimney which should allow more smoke to burn of at the cat. It's weird. You guys have any thoughts.

 

[LesW]

Thanks again. I read some threads there .

Seems like many folks have a low opinion of these stoves. But they can put out some heat...just a little finicky I guess.

Not a "throw a log on and forget it" stove.

Can't do an overnight burn with the 240...firebox is just too small. Reload time for me is 2 hours or so. Might be a little better If I regasketed it.

But...

Cat lit. Now 70 degrees in my office here.

Les

 

[raybonz]

Thanks again. I read some threads there .

Seems like many folks have a low opinion of these stoves. But they can put out some heat...just a little finicky I guess.

Not a "throw a log on and forget it" stove.

Can't do an overnight burn with the 240...firebox is just too small. Reload time for me is 2 hours or so. Might be a little better If I regasketed it.

But...

Cat lit. Now 70 degrees in my office here.

Les

Two hours sounds very low to me.. Try burning seasoned (DRY) oak, beech, locust, apple, cherry,ash, maple etc. and replace those leaky rope gaskets and you should see a big difference..Pine is OK as long as it is dry but will burn fast and for a short time.. FYI Lowes carries the 3/8" rope gasket kit for under $7.00 which comes with the glue and it's easy to do it yourself just follow the directions.. The kit had enough gasket mat'l and glue to do my side load door 2 times.. Works like a charm .. Air control is vital to correct stove operation along with dry fuel preferably hardwood if you want longer hotter burns...

Ray

 

[bsearcey]

Two hours sounds low to me too. On the weekends I find myself loading between 3.5 to 4 hours, but that is keeping it rocking. I can go 6 to 7 hours and the outside of stove will be in the 250-200 range.

 

[raybonz]

Two hours sounds low to me too. On the weekends I find myself loading between 3.5 to 4 hours, but that is keeping it rocking. I can go 6 to 7 hours and the outside of stove will be in the 250-200 range.

Those are pretty decent numbers for a stove from 1984! Is that stove catalytic? As long as I have coals when I get up I can get it running in under 1/2 hr. most times and that is back to catalytic operation too.. For a lousy stove they sure do last a very long time!

Ray

 

[LesW]

Bsearchy,

I have the stove pipe damper too...big brass knob on the firplace fill panel.

Scared to use it though...it doesn't have much of a positive mechanical control. It's kinda either open or closed. Might be able to set it part way, but I just can't tell by the feel of the control.

The cat on mine has tons of flow restriction, as much as a mostly closed SP damper I would imagine. It's new but might be a little dirty.

Never really understood these dampers, unless they are just there to starve out chimney fires.

Had a bad experience with a flue damper in a fireplace once...snapped shut accidently. House full of smoke.

Edit: And yeah my 2 hr reload time is pretty short...that's the primary reason my calculated efficiency is only in the 30% range. But I know there are some major leaks, because I can close all the dampers completely and still get a lot of draft, with the fire sucking up
actively toward the stovepipe. I'll look into one of those gasket kits...thanks.

Les

 

[raybonz]

Bsearchy,

I have the stove pipe damper too...big brass knob on the firplace fill panel.

Scared to use it though...it doesn't have much of a positive mechanical control. It's kinda either open or closed. Might be able to set it part way, but I just can't tell by the feel of the control.

The cat on mine has tons of flow restriction, as much as a mostly closed SP damper I would imagine. It's new but might be a little dirty.

Never really understood these dampers, unless they are just there to starve out chimney fires.

Had a bad experience with a flue damper in a fireplace once...snapped shut accidently. House full of smoke.

Les

FWIW I took my damper off a few yrs ago but may put it back for those very windy days... You don't want to cool your chimney off too much or you'll lose your draft and cause extra backpuffing when your chimney loses its' draw...


Ray

 

[bsearcey]

10-4. I'm just testing out using the damper. The manual seemed to indicate it would give me a better longer burn. I didn't notice any backpuffing yesterday, but thanks for the heads up. According to the manual, even with the damper shut all the say it still has 30% of the full open area. There are holes in the damper. So I'm not completely taking away the draw just limiting it. I'll play around with it some more. If it doesn't work for me then I'll just leave it open like I had it before.

 

[LesW]

According to the manual, even with the damper shut all the say it still has 30% of the full open area. There are holes in the damper. So I'm not completely taking away the draw just limiting it. I'll play around with it some more.

Really?

That explains a lot...i'll try playing with it as well.

If I could double my reload time I would half the stuff I have to carry in...and I don't need the excercise!

Les

 

[raybonz]

Really?

That explains a lot...i'll try playing with it as well.

If I could double my reload time I would half the stuff I have to carry in...and I don't need the excercise!

Les

Les you never did mention what wood you are burning.. Can you please elaborate?

Thanx,
Ray

 

[LesW]

Les you never did mention what wood you are burning.. Can you please elaborate?

Sure Ray. it's split red oak at a moisture content of 10-15%.

Pretty soon I'll run out of that "good stuff" and have to burn wetter wood...prob 20% + (if I can)

Les

 

[raybonz]

Sure Ray. it's split red oak at a moisture content of 10-15%.

Pretty soon I'll run out of that "good stuff" and have to burn wetter wood...prob 20% + (if I can)

Les

That's a good wood and if your moisture content is that low you should get much longer hotter burns.. Like I said before these stove HATE wet unseasoned wood, I know this from experience! Have I mentioned these stoves hate wet wood ? LOL


Ray