Federal Airtight 264CCL Questions

[bsearcey]

Les,
IMHO I would suggest mixing some of you wetter wood with the good stuff. It would help mitigate some of the bad associated with the higher moisture content wood i.e. lower initial temps, less dirty smoke up the chimney. That way you get decent burns for more days then having really good burns for a short time and then so so burns after that.

 

[Wood Doctor]

Any of you guys use the stove pipe damper? The reason I ask is because when I installed my stove (insert installation) I put the damper in the in flue collar on the stove. Until this weekend I've never messed with it and always left it completely open. During burns I would have virtually no smoke coming out of the chimney. This is of course with the cat engaged.

This weekend after reading this new manual I got. I've started closing the stove pipe damper when I engage the cat. Everything else about my operation is the same as before (getting up to temps and what not), but now I close the SP damper. Well there is all kinds of smoke coming out now. Especially in the first 30 mins of closing everything down. It's dirty smoke too. I know the cat is engaged (glowing), so I don't really understand where the smoke is coming from. Theoretically, by closing the SP damper I'm slowing the draw up my chimney which should allow more smoke to burn of at the cat. It's weird. You guys have any thoughts.

I never use a stove pipe damper. Leave that open and control the fire with the air intakes. I can almost choke the fire dead out by closing both of the them. There is a happy medium between length of burn and fire intensity. Once you obtain that, leave the settings alone until there is a weather change that mandates it.

In warmer weather, your chimney draft will decrease, so more air intake is required for an adequate burn. In colder weather, you can decrease air intake because the chimney draft will pull more air in.

Lately, it's been so cold that I doubt that I have more than a 1/8" gap between the air intake valve and the stove's doors. Regardless, the fire is hot enough to push the thermometer to 1200 F on occasion. I am blessed with a whale of a chimney and live on top of a hill, so all of those factors contibute to a hot fire.

Now get this. Thursday they are talking a wind chill of -40 F in my neck of the woods with 25 mph steady north winds. I assure you that "Jaws" (my stove's nickname) will love that.

 

[raybonz]

I never use a stove pipe damper. Leave that open and control the fire with the air intakes. I can almost choke the fire dead out by closing both of the them. There is a happy medium between length of burn and fire intensity. Once you obtain that, leave the settings alone until there is a weather change that mandates it.

In warmer weather, your chimney draft will decrease, so more air intake is required for an adequate burn. In colder weather, you can decrease air intake because the chimney draft will pull more air in.

Lately, it's been so cold that I doubt that I have more than a 1/8" gap between the air intake valve and the stove's doors. Regardless, the fire is hot enough to push the thermometer to 1200 F on occasion. I am blessed with a whale of a chimney and live on top of a hill, so all of those factors contibute to a hot fire.


Now get this. Thursday they are talking a wind chill of -40 F in my neck of the woods with 25 mph steady north winds. I assure you that "Jaws" (my stove's nickname) will love that.

That should give one hell of a draft! Gonna be getting colder here as well and my dragon is ready for it!! I agree with your post and I think I touched on this in a previous post.. The only reason I would put the damper back in is to reduce the draft on a very windy cold day otherwise it would always be full open.. Choking a fire will lead to smoldering and creosote build up which is never good...

Ray

 

[Wood Doctor]

That should give one hell of a draft! Gonna be getting colder here as well and my dragon is ready for it!! I agree with your post and I think I touched on this in a previous post.. The only reason I would put the damper back in is to reduce the draft on a very windy cold day otherwise it would always be full open.. Choking a fire will lead to smoldering and creosote build up which is never good...

Ray

What amazes me the most this year is that the East (and even Maine) has received a much milder winter than the Midlands. This is the worst winter that Nebraska has ever experienced, and even the old-timers say so. Yes, it has been colder and yes, there may have been worse snowfalls. However, the combination of the two together has never been witnessed by anyone.

Tomorrow another 6" to 8" of snow is expected on top of a 26" packed base. A severe ice storm arrived just before the Christmas blizzard to make things worse. Drifts as high as 10' are everywhere. Then -40 F wind chill is on tap for Thursday. The high temperature for the next three days is not expected to reach zero. Owners of all pets are being told to bring them indoors, irrespective of breed.

Hey guys, if you like to ski, forget high rates elsewhere. Ski Nebraska. I'm also tempted to put a sign in my front yard that says, "Free Snow".

 

[bsearcey]

I hear you Doc and Ray about the damper. The only reason why I began fooling with it is because the manual I have for the stove suggested it. By the way Doc, I don't know if you remember me trying to get the manual for my 83/84, but a guy contacted me and he actually had this manual. I've got it in pdf format in case someone else needs it. Anyway it said that it increased the effieciency and burn time.

I do know that I have a killer draw espcially like you all have mentioned with the weather being cold. For instance tonight I had a good bed of coals and put 3 med sized rounds on. All the dampers were completely shut and the draw was so strong it was still pulling flames up through the damper and into the SS tee. Other times when getting the box up to temp by leaving the dampers open for a bit as soon as I shut down I get this rushing sound at the back of the stove. Scared the crap out of me the first time it happened becuase I thought it was a chimney fire. It sound like a jet engine and was rumbling, but it was just the flames being pulled up through the damper. If I did have a creoste problem that is probably a good way to start a chimney fire though. Anyway since mucking with the stove pipe damper I'm able to stop this from happening by closing at the first signs of this happening.

From what I've seen so far I'm not that impressed with using it with the cat engaged. It does seem to make the load last longer, but with the amount of smoke I'm seeing I'm not impressed.

 

[Jason123]

For Les and Bsearcy

Les,
I have the 224 which is the small stove, it is not a insert it is just a standard stove on legs. I also do not have a fan on it. I get more than enough heat to keep my house (1600 square feet) warm on the cold days. My unit can pump out the heat if I want it to.... I have been using it for 4 years with no issues. I can wake up in the morning with coals left after 7 or 8 hours if I close off all of my air intakes and rely on leakage past the seals. Granted the fire isnt as hot when I do this, but it is the best way to get some heat out of it all night. I have no complaints about my little stove.

I have never had the problems that you have had with my fire going out, in fact I need to keep an eye on it so it dosent get too hot and damage the stove once I engage the cat. I just learned that I have to cut the air intake down considerably once I engage the cat. It makes me wonder if your cat is plugged or your draw isnt enough (even though you said these were both good) because I have never had issues like you have had. I would try using the stove pipe damper when you are getting it going, full open when first starting and close it part way once the fire is going, this gets the unit hotter. Once the unit is hot engage the cat and open the stove pipe damper. this seems to work best for me.

bsearcy,
I had the same question you had about using the damper on the stove pipe with the cat. I have used it some (left it just a crack open) and I feel like I get more heat and my fire goes longer (hense my 7 to 8 hours and still a bed of coals). I dont get visible smoke in the house, but I might get some fumes. I was going to replace my seals on the cook top and see if that makes it better. But I have left the stove pipe damper partially closed over night and there dosent seem to be any issues. I just keep the air intake knobs basically closed when I do this and she can go a loooong time.

Some people have a low opinion of these stoves, but mine works like a champ and I think she is beautiful. My only wish is that that my 224 was longer so I could fit in some longer logs, I have to keep my log size small.

 

[bsearcey]

Jason,

Glad to see another 224 user is happy. BTW what year is yours. Do you have the third combustor air control (top left above the side load door)? This is my first year with it and couldn't agree with you more on the performance of the stove, especially since mine was built pre EPA regs. Seems like they were ahead of the game. Yeah having a bigger box would be nice.

I didn't mean to imply that I'm getting smoke in the house when closing the SP damper. I meant coming out of the chimney. It was just odd that I was getting what appeared dirtier smoke out of the chimney even with the cat engaged. But now instead of closing the SP damper all the way I only close it about half way during secondary combustion. This morning after doing this all I had coming out of the chimney was white vapor which is good. That means it's burning clean. I'm attaching the page from the manual that talks about closing the damper (Step 7). Benefits describe are like you said. Makes sense to me.

 

[raybonz]

What amazes me the most this year is that the East (and even Maine) has received a much milder winter than the Midlands. This is the worst winter that Nebraska has ever experienced, and even the old-timers say so. Yes, it has been colder and yes, there may have been worse snowfalls. However, the combination of the two together has never been witnessed by anyone.

Tomorrow another 6" to 8" of snow is expected on top of a 26" packed base. A severe ice storm arrived just before the Christmas blizzard to make things worse. Drifts as high as 10' are everywhere. Then -40 F wind chill is on tap for Thursday. The high temperature for the next three days is not expected to reach zero. Owners of all pets are being told to bring them indoors, irrespective of breed.

Hey guys, if you like to ski, forget high rates elsewhere. Ski Nebraska. I'm also tempted to put a sign in my front yard that says, "Free Snow".

Ed it has been cold here dunno about Maine and the temp has rarely made it to 32 degrees.. So far we have had about 3' of snow here in SE Mass. and that's alot for this area.. Last yr. we got lots of snow and cold temps too.. Sounds like you're getting it even worse than us and I am sure you're loving your stove right about now lol... Funny thing is in a few months we'll be complaining because it's too hot!! What is life without contrast?

Stay Warm,
Ray

 

[LesW]

Some people have a low opinion of these stoves, but mine works like a champ and I think she is beautiful. My only wish is that that my 224 was longer so I could fit in some longer logs, I have to keep my log size small.

The guy I bought mine from did have a pretty low opinion of it. He said it would burn wood, but generated no heat whatsoever. He also said it wouldn't even light with anything less than bone dry wood. He had no blower though.

Well, as you have read, I have managed to get 15-2000 BTU out of it. That could heat a small well insulated house I guess.

But I do consider it finicky, and I get tired of having to feed it so often. Yes, that will probably improve if I do a seal job. But it's not horribly leaky even as is. The only leak I can detect is one corner of the ash drawer.

Overnight burns are out of the question with my unit.

I have another problem not related to wood stove specifics...it's the house I'm in. It's an old bungalow i'm restoring, and it originally did'nt have a speck of insulation. I've fixed part of it, but have not finished. So parts have good insulation installed but until the whole thing is done the insulation does nothing. It's like a well insulated box...with one side open!

I'm getting pretty tired of this cold. I can't imagine why the old houses here had no insulation. Yes, this is in the south, but in the narrow strip of the blue ridge mountains it gets VERY cold. Sometimes below zero. And horribly windy.

I have owned very old houses up in Chicago, and they were perfectly warm.
So I don't buy the "they didn't know how back then" argument.

You know what? A little more of this and I may be posting from a laptop in the Bahamas. I've had about enough!

Les

 

[raybonz]

The guy I bought mine from did have a pretty low opinion of it. He said it would burn wood, but generated no heat whatsoever. He also said it wouldn't even light with anything less than bone dry wood. He had no blower though.

Well, as you have read, I have managed to get 15-2000 BTU out of it. That could heat a small well insulated house I guess.

But I do consider it finicky, and I get tired of having to feed it so often. Yes, that will probably improve if I do a seal job. But it's not horribly leaky even as is. The only leak I can detect is one corner of the ash drawer.

Overnight burns are out of the question with my unit.

I have another problem not related to wood stove specifics...it's the house I'm in. It's an old bungalow i'm restoring, and it originally did'nt have a speck of insulation. I've fixed part of it, but have not finished. So parts have good insulation installed but until the whole thing is done the insulation does nothing. It's like a well insulated box...with one side open!

I'm getting pretty tired of this cold. I can't imagine why the old houses here had no insulation. Yes, this is in the south, but in the narrow strip of the blue ridge mountains it gets VERY cold. Sometimes below zero. And horribly windy.

I have owned very old houses up in Chicago, and they were perfectly warm.
So I don't buy the "they didn't know how back then" argument.

You know what? A little more of this and I may be posting from a laptop in the Bahamas. I've had about enough!

Les

Les I find this stove runs much better if you leave the ashbin full all the time.. I leave it full and maybe a 1" or so layer of ash in the bottom of the stove all the time... For whatever reason it runs best this way...

Ray

 

[LesW]

Les I find this stove runs much better if you leave the ashbin full all the time.. I leave it full and maybe a 1" or so layer of ash in the bottom of the stove all the time... For whatever reason it runs best this way...

Yeah, mine is that way. Plugs up the ash bin door air leak too!

I used to keep it real clean so the air damper in the front door could be used without clogging. I now know that it's to be used for coal only, so no big deal if it's full of ashes.

I think things like that are why we see many saying that these stoves are junk, while others say they work great.

They will put out the heat, but only with the proper procedure and maintenance.

Les

 

[raybonz]

:agree2:

Yeah, mine is that way. Plugs up the ash bin door air leak too!

I used to keep it real clean so the air damper in the front door could be used without clogging. I now know that it's to be used for coal only, so no big deal if it's full of ashes.

I think things like that are why we see many saying that these stoves are junk, while others say they work great.

They will put out the heat, but only with the proper procedure and maintenance.

Les

I have been keeping my eyes open for a low mileage spare stove of the same vintage because they last a very long time and rarely need parts... Experience is definitely the best teacher on this and many other stoves! The new stoves seem to run well but people seem to always be fixing them and that gets expensive so much in fact that it may be cheaper to heat with oil or gas! You can pick up these stoves cheaply used on Craigslist etc. and in one instance I saw one for FREE that had never been installed but was rusty from sitting in someones garage! Hell it takes very little paint and effort to fix that!!! Someone got a helluva deal there!

Ray

 

[Jason123]

Jason,

Glad to see another 224 user is happy. BTW what year is yours. Do you have the third combustor air control (top left above the side load door)?

My unit is a 1988. Yes, I do have the third cumbustor air control on my unit.

 

[Jason123]

The guy I bought mine from did have a pretty low opinion of it. He said it would burn wood, but generated no heat whatsoever. He also said it wouldn't even light with anything less than bone dry wood. He had no blower though.

Well, as you have read, I have managed to get 15-2000 BTU out of it. That could heat a small well insulated house I guess.

Les,

Another thing I do sometimes that everyone here will disagree with, is this: I dont engage the cat and I control the fire by the air inlets and the stove pipe damper. I feel that this can put out more heat. When I do that and point a separate fan at the unit/stovepipe, I can get a ton of heat out of it (the seperate fan is key and pointed at the stove pipe). The only downfall is that it burns more wood, and you have to clean your chimney more often... I just cleaned mine today. You can burn less desirable wood easier when you do it this way. It is using the unit like an old school wood stove. I am not advising this technique, but I feel it can kick up the heat at the loss of efficiency. But I am probably crazy.

 

[Wood Doctor]

Les,

Another thing I do sometimes that everyone here will disagree with, is this: I dont engage the cat and I control the fire by the air inlets and the stove pipe damper. I feel that this can put out more heat. When I do that and point a separate fan at the unit/stovepipe, I can get a ton of heat out of it (the seperate fan is key and pointed at the stove pipe). The only downfall is that it burns more wood, and you have to clean your chimney more often... I just cleaned mine today. You can burn less desirable wood easier when you do it this way. It is using the unit like an old school wood stove. I am not advising this technique, but I feel it can kick up the heat at the loss of efficiency. But I am probably crazy.

Jason, it sounds like your cat is dead (no pun intended.) You have to clean them or they clog up and die. That's why I gave up on them.

The secondary combustion chamber is a must to use on Federal Airtight stoves, irrespective of cat combustors. That is why I rebuilt the flue collar when it burned out, and made a new exhaust vent in my shop to capture and choke the flow. These two parts work:
(1) flue collar from 1" x 1" angle iron and new bolts:

(2) exhaust vent from 1/4" steel plate to rest on the collar:

The exhaust vent gets red hot, just like the expensive cat combustor does, and the flue gases reach 1200 F by sending them through the secondary combustion chamber. And, it's easy to remove and clean and it will last for years and years.

 

[raybonz]

Jason, it sounds like your cat is dead (no pun intended.) You have to clean them or they clog up and die. That's why I gave up on them.

The secondary combustion chamber is a must to use on Federal Airtight stoves, irrespective of cat combustors. That is why I rebuilt the flue collar when it burned out, and made a new exhaust vent in my shop to capture and choke the flow. These two parts work:
(1) flue collar from 1" x 1" angle iron and new bolts:

(2) exhaust vent from 1/4" steel plate to rest on the collar:

The exhaust vent gets red hot, just like the expensive cat combustor does, and the flue gases reach 1200 F by sending them through the secondary combustion chamber. And, it's easy to remove and clean and it will last for years and years.

Interesting Ed how do you know it reaches 1200 degrees? When you go outside do you see smoke coming from your chimney? For me it's a 2-fold thing, reclaiming lost energy from smoke and reducing pollution.. In a traditional secondary burn stove air pipes recirculate the wood gasses for reburn how does yours work? My cats last a very long time so the $100.00 is worth it to me.. Just curious..

Ray

 

[046]

most interesting thread....

 

[Wood Doctor]

Interesting Ed how do you know it reaches 1200 degrees? When you go outside do you see smoke coming from your chimney? For me it's a 2-fold thing, reclaiming lost energy from smoke and reducing pollution.. In a traditional secondary burn stove air pipes recirculate the wood gasses for reburn how does yours work? My cats last a very long time so the $100.00 is worth it to me.. Just curious..

Ray

The thermometer mounted right in the secondary combustion chamber reads exactly that. It ranges from 1000 F to 1200 F when running full bore as it is right now. That's the OEM thermometer that came with the stove. It drops into a small hole in the top casting plate. On occasion, it will reach 1300 F.

I seldom see smoke coming from the chimney after I load up and wait a few minutes. Ray, I think the secret is in the almost red hot steel in my case that works about the same as the cat combustor. That temperature is what ignites those flue gases, reburns them in the secondary combustion chamber, and gets rid of the smoke. A cat combustor does the same thing.

I may experiment with another steel plate with more holes but each smaller in diameter. That might simulate the typical cat combustor even more. At some point, however, the small holes become easy to clog with soot and that defeats the purpose. Right now, what I have pictured above seems to work rather well.

 

[raybonz]

The thermometer mounted right in the secondary combustion chamber reads exactly that. It ranges from 1000 F to 1200 F when running full bore as it is right now. That's the OEM thermometer that came with the stove. It drops into a small hole in the top casting plate. On occasion, it will reach 1300 F.

I seldom see smoke coming from the chimney after I load up and wait a few minutes. Ray, I think the secret is in the almost red hot steel in my case that works about the same as the cat combustor. That temperature is what ignites those flue gases, reburns them in the secondary combustion chamber, and gets rid of the smoke. A cat combustor does the same thing.

I may experiment with another steel plate with more holes but each smaller in diameter. That might simulate the typical cat combustor even more. At some point, however, the small holes become easy to clog with soot and that defeats the purpose. Right now, what I have pictured above seems to work rather well.

That's pretty neat Ed and clever too! My stove has the same thermometer setup so I know what you're talking about.. When you say secondary combustion chamber are you talking about the space under the cookplate? I think I have a cast iron plate with holes in it that came with stove for coal burning I suppose that could work?I imagine you must feed in air via the brass knob for the combustor to assist the smoke burn.. Too bad you are so far away as I'd like too this in action..

Good Job,
Ray

 

[Wood Doctor]

That's pretty neat Ed and clever too! My stove has the same thermometer setup so I know what you're talking about.. When you say secondary combustion chamber are you talking about the space under the cookplate? I think I have a cast iron plate with holes in it that came with stove for coal burning I suppose that could work?I imagine you must feed in air via the brass knob for the combustor to assist the smoke burn.. Too bad you are so far away as I'd like too this in action..

Good Job,
Ray

That's correct on the secondary combustion chamber. It's the space right below the cookplate (and thermometer).

And, yes, the cast iron plate will work. It's designed for coal, but will work with wood with some loss in efficiency. I ran mine for a year or so with that plate in place rather than the cat combustor:

Note that I tried to copy the hole pattern somewhat and the chamfer drillings when I made the new plate with 1/4" steel. I'm not convinced that the deep counter sinks were necessary, and the holes could have remained almost square to the surface of the plate, straight in and out.

The flue collar eventually burned out so that's why I made the angle iron frame, bolted it in, and went rectangular with the replacement plate. With this new collar and "wholey" damper, I may have lost an hour or so in total burn time, but there is absolutely no loss in flue gas temperature. If anything, it may have gone up 100 F. Today the flue gas reached 1400 F with it -8 F outside and a gentle north breeze.

I used the same settings for all three air intakes that I used when the cat combustor was in place. The secondary air valve is open most of the way and the other two I adjust depending on chimney draft. When I hit 1400 F today, I was burning mostly oak and mulberry. I imagine my damper is twice the weight of the round one that the OEM supplied for coal.