Female climbers

[Bermie]

Bermie, just wondering if you know a couple by the name of Herb & Lynn Stoots who spend winters there? I dont know if they own property there or rent. If they own I know they are having tree work done.

Can't say as I do...though if they own, tell 'em to look up Tree Care & Training if they don't already have a tree surgeon!
Quite a few folks who winter here have condo's or fractional ownership, so they aren't necessarily the ones deciding to have tree work done.

Hey VT, if you are smaller than me, you must be teensy, 'cause I'm tiny! Got to love it when a girl shows up and can out cut the guys! Good on you!

Pdql - I agree with your herbicide info...when I use Garlon, I only mix it with water, can't handle the smell and slop with the diesel mix. We have to be really careful with the Tordon, can't put it on stumps that are too close to desirable vegetation, the root exudates really do have an 'off target' effect on some species.

 

[pdqdl]

Slight mis-perception there: The Tordon is not exuded by the stump, but the tordon is residual in the soil. So if you put enough down to kill a whole lot of trees...it will. Even if it is just a residual amount in the soil. It isn't like roundup, and most people over-apply, distrusting how well it works.

One quart per acre of tordon 22k can wipe out an acre of trees. That would be one gallon of Tordon RTU spread out over an area 208' x 208'. Resistant varieties of trees are usually taken out at 2 quarts per acre of 22k.

The only thing that I know of that is worse for trees is a soil sterilant called Spike. It gets trees for YEARS, and lingers in the deeper layers of soil.

 

[Raymond]

Slight mis-perception there: The Tordon is not exuded by the stump, but the tordon is residual in the soil. So if you put enough down to kill a whole lot of trees...it will. Even if it is just a residual amount in the soil. It isn't like roundup, and most people over-apply, distrusting how well it works.

One quart per acre of tordon 22k can wipe out an acre of trees. That would be one gallon of Tordon RTU spread out over an area 208' x 208'. Resistant varieties of trees are usually taken out at 2 quarts per acre of 22k.

The only thing that I know of that is worse for trees is a soil sterilant called Spike. It gets trees for YEARS, and lingers in the deeper layers of soil.

Tordon? That that pretty blue stuff? Man I haven't seen that #### for 20 years.

 

[Bermie]

Yes, that pretty blue stuff...stinky too!

I'll read the label again, pretty sure it metioned getting onto the soil via root exudate as well as spillage being persistant in the soil. It also said its phyto toxic for up to one year in the soil, and transportable in runoff water...its good, but you have to be careful!

Here's another climbing pic to keep us on topic!

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

and NO you lot, I am not posting any pictures!

Dang, I was hoping for some forearm shots

 

[pdqdl]

Regarding tordon: Bermie gets HUGE BIG BONUS POINTS for observing that treated trees do excrete this product enough to affect nearby trees. Page 3, lower right column of 22K label below. (I stand my ground on my statement "Tordon is not exuded by the stump". Once treated, the stump doesn't exude much of anything, cause it is dead. The excretion of the product by treated tree seems to be a different issue.)


So not only do the girls climb trees and carry chainsaws, they can read, think, and remember too!

Label for Tordon 22k
Label for Tordon RTU

This is great reading for those of you that might wish to become a licensed applicator. Otherwise, it might hurt your head. [when you fall asleep at the keyboard]

 

[Mapleman]

Bermie,

Is that a monkey puzzle tree?

 

[Bermie]

Bermie,

Is that a monkey puzzle tree?

Type of...Norfolk Island Pine 'Aurucaria somethingorotherum...excelsa I think.

Pdql...just to wring the last possible debate out of the Tordon...think about it, a freshly cut stump, the 'water column' has collapsed, the stump is not yet dead, indeed stumps would sprout epicormics if we didn't treat them to kill them, so there is well the chance that there is 'leakage' out through the roots for a period of time very soon after cutting, and we put the chemical on it as soon as possible after cutting...???
PS thanks for the bonus points!

 

[pdqdl]

All your points are aknowledged as correct, BUT...

If a proper dose of chemical is applied to the cambium ring on the tree, then it is translocated far enough to kill the sparks of life out of the underground portions of the tree. When this occurs, the dosage of the chemical per unit of area is dramatically reduced, thereby diluting the concentration available for uptake by the neighboring trees.

Keep in mind that the majority of the absorbed chemical must remain inside the treated stump, so after root zone dispersal and it's consequent dilution, there is no way the tordon will hurt adjacent trees unless you put too much on the stump.

Now if you are broadcasting large volumes of chemical, and you have a heavily treated tree, I can see how it might leak enough chemical in the process of dying to affect an adjacent tree.

Myself, I have never seen the claimed "excretion" doing damage to adjacent plants. How could you possibly tell? Unless you were injecting the herbicide, there would always be more product available to move "off target" and potentially get non-target trees.

I probably do more spraying of tordon than most anyone you will find (except those utility ROW guys), and I respect the stuff quite a bit. But I'm not afraid to treat stumps with it, for fear of killing the neighbors tree.

 

[Bermie]

Ok, so now we have totally derailed this thread...I am finding this a very interesting discussion!

As my primary use for Tordon is to kill stumps in nature reserves, often where the stumps are right in the middle of desirable native vegetation, any clarification by an experienced user is great stuff. I also am a certified pesticide applicator (UK qualification)

So...I use the RTU, with the pull up dribble spout, and dribble it around the cambium ring. There is no accurate way to measure it out, once around and you're done. I am always very careful to avoid spillage down the outside of the stump into the soil.
So are you saying that if (suppose) I over apply by going around the stump again, then that is when the off target damage may occur, by 'overloading' the stump, or indeed if any product gets in the soil and is transported in soil water or runoff as I would expect.

I would like to get to the bottom of this, often there are volunteers and even inexperienced employees applying this stuff, and I would like to write a 'cheat sheet' for them on correct application procedure, as almost none of them bother to read the label, and indeed the label quickly becomes contaminated as inevitably product seeps down from the dribble cap. Garlon is a restricted use herbicide (I got mine!) and Tordon is available 'over the counter', and appears to the uninitiated a simple product to use.

As I said, interesting discussion, thanks...sorry everyone else, its the pdql and Bermie herbicide show!

Oh yes, I have seen surinam cherry in proximity to treated stumps looking very ragged after application, in my own garden and the neighbours. Others have told me of nearby ferns being affected (not entirely surprising)

 

[treeseer]

...its the pdql and Bermie herbicide show!

opcorn:

 

[Bigus Termitius]

Well, you could always "go green" and do it the old fashion way.

 

[Glennak]

I saw a Hawthorn hedge die from Elm suckers being painted with Tordon. This probably happened via root grafts. In a small country town in Victoria (Aus) many years ago council workers were told to paint the stumps of Elm suckers with spray strength roundup. They new better and used full strength to bad for the street trees.
Getting back on thread I have employed 5 women over the years only one was any good as a climber but most were very consistent workers. One in particular was very good at keeping the blokes working well.

 

[Bermie]

Well, you could always "go green" and do it the old fashion way.

Unfortunately its a trade off, with the sheer volume of work, the area and accessibility, we can't afford to keep going back over and over again to deal with resprounts.
This conversation had got me rethinking the whole tordon thing in the reserves, it may be better to go back to garlon and find a better applicator for it.
Now here's a side story with garlon/diesel...on a really hot day it can volatise, and the VAPOUR can kill off target species, how's that then!

Here's another picture to keep us on topic...

 

[Bigus Termitius]

Unfortunately its a trade off, with the sheer volume of work, the area and accessibility, we can't afford to keep going back over and over again to deal with resprounts.
This conversation had got me rethinking the whole tordon thing in the reserves, it may be better to go back to garlon and find a better applicator for it.
Now here's a side story with garlon/diesel...on a really hot day it can volatise, and the VAPOUR can kill off target species, how's that then!

Here's another picture to keep us on topic...

Doing the right thing for the environment isn't always, cheap, easy, or convenient. Nor can you afford to lose and/or replace off target species.

You see....

...I'm just pulling your rope.

Actually, I grew up on a farm, and I can tell you all too well the difference between manual, mechanical, and chemical. I also used to be a commercial chemical applicator where I sprayed all kinds of ungodliness on crops with those monster sprayers.

Now, I'm running a ROW crew during the week on a rather large rural Coop and we brush it on our cut stumps. We've used Garlon, Tordon, and Roundup. We only use diesel mix in the winter. Right now, we are running a Garlon 4/Stalker mix. The rep tells us that it will get it all around here.

We'll see.

Good pic. I'm convinced someone needs to call Stihl and tell them to give the calendar fluzzies the boot this year and do a calendar with real women doing real work.

 

[tree MDS]

Unfortunately its a trade off, with the sheer volume of work, the area and accessibility, we can't afford to keep going back over and over again to deal with resprounts.
This conversation had got me rethinking the whole tordon thing in the reserves, it may be better to go back to garlon and find a better applicator for it.
Now here's a side story with garlon/diesel...on a really hot day it can volatise, and the VAPOUR can kill off target species, how's that then!

Here's another picture to keep us on topic...

That pic, Austrailian Pine??

 

[pdqdl]

Ok, Bermie, I'll break this down to the "proper" application rate.

Let's take an obnoxious tree that has say, a 50' diameter drip line. That equates to 1963 sq.ft. (182 sq. meters). If this tree were to be sprayed with the maximum rate of tordon 22k (at 64oz/acre), that would be equal to .0451 acres x 64 oz=2.88 oz to kill every tree within that area. If that were Tordon RTU, 11.53 ounces would be enough to treat all the cut stumps within that area, at the maximum application rate.

In my experience, a paint brush works well, but a small spray bottle (like a windex bottle or similar) works better because they are less likely to cause a spill; if spilled, they don't loose a lot of chemical, and the operator is less likely to overapply an area compared to a one gallon pump-up sprayer.

I think 1/2 to one ounce of Tordon RTU is enough to kill all but the biggest of stumps, and there is probably no need to fear death among the neighboring plants. Just spritz the outer ring until it is blue, then stop. No runoff required. (adding a really good surfactant will increase effectiveness without increasing risk)

 

[Kate Butler]

That pic, Austrailian Pine??

Yep, Australian pine - considered (nowadays) to be an exotic invasive, but planted as hedging and/or property line delineations years ago in the Tropics.

I've seen them 100' tall and they are some scare-y. They are just so much taller than almost anything else (though some of the Norfolk Island pines can get close).

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I think 1/2 to one ounce of Tordon RTU is enough to kill all but the biggest of stumps, and there is probably no need to fear death among the neighboring plants. Just spritz the outer ring until it is blue, then stop. No runoff required. (adding a really good surfactant will increase effectiveness without increasing risk)

I've heard that, on big stumps, you do not need to coat the entire ring, just above the major roots.

At least one guy i know uses a small sprayer that is ml graduated, so he can record usage vs effectiveness.

 

[pdqdl]

JPS: I would love to hear how much he applies. Sadly, I have never measured. I just put on a little, and move on. I even use the pump up sprayers sometimes, as they are so much easier.

Usually, if we are in sensitive area, we just use the stump grinder.