Fire

[grizz55chev]

My uniform is Blue, my turn-outs are black, my WL pants are tan, green & blue, my shirt is (was)yellow. I use Nicks, Whites and Sportivas.
I did 10 weeks OOC and only stayed in a hotel 3 nights last year
I get paid P to P, so stay I avail 24/7.
I carry Narcotics, I have both Huskys and Stihls ( this is a chainsaw site )) and drink Peet’s Major D, fresh grind in a jet boil.
Here’s to 2018,

Erik

Pete’s is good, try a French press, love my coffee!

 

[Drptrch]

Pete’s is good, try a French press, love my coffee!

Fo sure !!

The fastest way to Fly [emoji106][emoji106]


Erik

 

[madhatte]

French Press every day, best coffee fastest.

 

[Drptrch]

Some visual perspective on the Sonoma/Napa Fires this past Oct from home. My daughters HS is directly above the blue dot on 2nd map @ Div-LL. 6 teachers and 12 families lost homes. From Marin County 1 Chief, 2 B/C’s and 2 FF’ lost homes and 8-10 were on Evans while working them.

I live about 10 min west of 101 ( the Blue dot)

and my Dept is about 20 miles south on 101.
The red flag is Annadell SP for reference.
There are 3 highways running roughly N/S through this area in valleys with ridges between, not including Hwy 1 on the coast. I’m at about 40 above sea level

These are three of those fires ( same perspective)

The Red pins are Annadell SP.
My 3 station Dept had 4 engines out on 4 different St/TF’s for 12 days. My TF was attached to the Nunns Fire the entire time

I had “ Find Friends” turned on my phone and my wife was able to see us move all over. A little comforting for her while watching it unfold on Local News.






Erik

 

[Gologit]

Anybody know anything about this? I'm really hoping it's not true.


http://fireaviation.com/2018/02/16/air-tankers-cut-one-third-2018/

 

[TBS]

I remember about 5 or 6 years ago a few p2v's crashed and we had 5 lats then calfire put the clamps down on their tankers in California and said i.a. only we wont keep flying for extended attack on fed fires. That got us back to the available 9 Fed tankers real fast and kind of helped get the 21 we had last year.

 

[Gologit]

Thoughts?




https://www.evergreenmagazine.com/scars-wounds/

 

[madhatte]

Poor USFS. Hamstrung by their own rules regarding environmental concerns and saddled with overarching wildfire responsibility, there's nothing they can do to please everybody.

My feeling, and I've said this before, is that it's time to revisit the ESA and honestly evaluate its effectiveness, and revise as necessary. Fact is, at the time that law was written, there was effectively no regulation at all to prevent poor stewardship of the land, so the ESA was unprecedented in its ability to actually enforce and enact punitive measures in response to violations. However, in the 40-some years since its enactment, it has come to substitute for conversation, compromise, and due process. Instead, landowning agencies live in constant fear of falling afoul of the ESA and feeling the full weight of the USFWS coming down around their ears. This has led to widespread and (rightly!) unpopular inaction regarding urgent matters like fuels management and post-burn salvage.

What I'd like to see is a re-work of the ESA where agencies have a chance to manage their land without fear of punitive measures stopping them before they begin a project. Specifically, I 'd like to see the USFS and other landowner agencies able to regularly harvest their land if for no other reason than to help recoup the some of the costs of increasingly expensive fire seasons. A key element of this change would be a halt on ESA concerns delaying or outright killing projects due to the "possibility" of conflict, without any appeal process available to the aggrieved party. 'Ologists individually are often reasonable, but massed, and strengthened by weight of law, are not so very much.

Further, it's been far too long that the USFS has had to rob the budgets from other, equally-important programs in order to pay for fire response. Congress also needs to step up and not act surprised when funds fall short because it happens every year. Fund this stuff appropriately and a lot of the urgency goes away.

Forestry has come a long way in the last 50 years, and a lot of that progress has been the direct result of learning from wildlife folks how trees and animals depend on each other. The old-growth is mostly gone. There's no way we can or would ever go back to the bad old days before the ESA, so why pretend that it's even a threat? It's time to reconcile what we have learned with what we feel, and get back to work. Or don't; whatever. The forests will wait for us to get our act together. They always have. They're not constrained by our puny human lifetimes.

 

[Ted Jenkins]

I am familiar with many FF agencies in California and have a history with the USFS when living in Washington State and Oregon. What I see is a huge drain on resources through out the US. Likely all the agencies will be fired and given to private corporations or higher standards will be needed. I think Cal Fire and along with the USFS doing some thing that has some good aspects that will make a difference. They should not have to deal with FAA, EPA or Air Quality Management Board when they need to burn or complete a task they need to just do it. They have been involved with prescribed burns and mechanical brush reduction which is a good thing. The bad thing is for most part agencies can not figure how to put a fire out. They would rather drive around staring at their phones. In 1980 we had the Panorama Fire which cost many millions to fight, but still lost almost a thousand homes. In that case it took more than a day to implement any action and by then it was completely out of control. Years latter in 2015 we had the Lake Fire near Jenks Lake close to Big Bear California. The disaster took two days before anything was even attempted at the cost of 32.5 million. The Blue Cut Fire just raged on in 2016 without ever any plan to put it out. The crews just drove around looking dismayed. Several hundred buildings and homes were destroyed. The captain has a news briefing and states he has never seen anything like it. Thus admitting he is clueless and does not deserve a paycheck. Then in 2017 we had the Thomas Fire which burned more than 300,000 aces and more than a thousand buildings. That fire cost close to 100 million to fight and $800,000,000 in property loss not to mention the many people who lost their lives. From the moment the fire was reported no body did any thing to respond for several hours. Then once a report was made no strategy was ever made to put the fire out. Is this the best our FF force can do or should we expect more accountability? Thanks

 

[2dogs]

Ted Jenkins is a liar and a BSer and I'm starting a campaign to have him banned from AS. We do not need the kind of garbage spewed here.

 

[madhatte]

I can confirm that is is untrue that firefighters would "rather drive around staring at their phones". This isn't a business you get into because it's easy. It also appears that he has no idea the complexity of the management underlying a large incident. Even if he did see individuals "not doing anything to respond", he cannot comment on how those individuals fit into the larger strategy. "Staging" is a thing. So is planning. Not every moment is balls-to-the-wall action, nor should it be. That's how firefighters get killed.

 

[northmanlogging]

I am familiar with many FF agencies in California and have a history with the USFS when living in Washington State and Oregon. What I see is a huge drain on resources through out the US. Likely all the agencies will be fired and given to private corporations or higher standards will be needed. I think Cal Fire and along with the USFS doing some thing that has some good aspects that will make a difference. They should not have to deal with FAA, EPA or Air Quality Management Board when they need to burn or complete a task they need to just do it. They have been involved with prescribed burns and mechanical brush reduction which is a good thing. The bad thing is for most part agencies can not figure how to put a fire out. They would rather drive around staring at their phones. In 1980 we had the Panorama Fire which cost many millions to fight, but still lost almost a thousand homes. In that case it took more than a day to implement any action and by then it was completely out of control. Years latter in 2015 we had the Lake Fire near Jenks Lake close to Big Bear California. The disaster took two days before anything was even attempted at the cost of 32.5 million. The Blue Cut Fire just raged on in 2016 without ever any plan to put it out. The crews just drove around looking dismayed. Several hundred buildings and homes were destroyed. The captain has a news briefing and states he has never seen anything like it. Thus admitting he is clueless and does not deserve a paycheck. Then in 2017 we had the Thomas Fire which burned more than 300,000 aces and more than a thousand buildings. That fire cost close to 100 million to fight and $800,000,000 in property loss not to mention the many people who lost their lives. From the moment the fire was reported no body did any thing to respond for several hours. Then once a report was made no strategy was ever made to put the fire out. Is this the best our FF force can do or should we expect more accountability? Thanks

Perhaps, its takes longer then you can comprehend to gather all the facts, before sending in hotshot crews to die, or smoke jumpers to die, or regular ole FS lackeys to die.

Perhaps in really dry overgrown timber fires are known to blow up.

Perhaps the fire captains working the fires, know more about the landscape then you do.

Perhaps they have a better idea as to what the weather, and humidity is and what the fire is likely to do then you do.

Perhaps they might be the best men/women for the job and you need to learn to stay out of the way.

Perhaps its easy to point out others mistakes well after the fact, when your not being blinded by smoke 17 phone calls, 33 news agencys and 10,000 other pressing concerns

Perhaps it takes more then a few hours to mobilize 300 men 10 peices of heavy equipment 3 helicopters, 2 bombers, 17 tons of food, 1000000 gallons of water, 200000 gallons of fuel.

Maybe if you think you can do a better job of it, maybe you should apply for a job at the FS or DNR and become part of the solution instead of bitching to folks here

Or maybe you should just shut the **** up and let folks do their job.

 

[Gologit]

I am familiar with many FF agencies in California and have a history with the USFS when living in Washington State and Oregon.

You "have a history" with the USFS? Were you on a fire crew? Hired vendor? Media?

I was on a few fires, mostly as a faller or running dozer, and I never saw anybody do the things you've described.
I don't have the depth of experience that 2dogs has and I don't have knowledge and expertise that Madhatte has gathered but I know them both personally. They've both paid their dues in actual fire situations and when they talk about fires I tend to listen.
Neither one of them will suffer a fool glady, nor should they have to. If they don't like what you're saying and if they don't agree with you it's time you took another look at your own ideas.
In any case, quit posting crap like this. Nobody is impressed, nobody who knows fires ever will be.

 

[Drptrch]

Yeah. Rush right in



My Task Force hailed on radio at 5:06 mark by Tubbs IC
TF 2142


Erik

 

[Drptrch]

898 dispatch calls received the first nite

We did 3 hours on a fire on Hwy 37 before even making it to our original assignment @0400
We had already been at work 40 hours and went 110 hours before relief.

I just drove thru one of the hilly areas we were sent.
36 of 52 homes damaged with 9 engines trying to slow it.
Talked with a lady and her young daughter amid the destruction and now, constant ongoing demolition. Hers was 1 of the 14 that survived that morning and next day.
I told her I had been in, on and around her house that night, 200’ with a hose line away from my engine, while my partner was 200’ the other way on another yard.
She hugged me and cried
Yes I did have pictures from that night, and I showed her what it looked like. She hugged me again and said “Thank You , we are blessed , I’m so sad but thankful” I told her thank you for that..it meant a lot

Their area

figuring the layout

Her yard and neighbors house ablaze

We then moved on


Erik

 

[northmanlogging]

So, in a civilized situation such as the California fires.

What is the best thing to do?

Fire lines would be roads, right... unless wind...

if you had a long line of houses do you just pick one and say here's where we fight?

I suppose dozing em don't work.

All comes down to the terrain and conditions it guess, I certainly don't envy any incident command on a big fire, has to be a lot like running old school trench warfare, sacrificing a little here to save a lot over there.

 

[Drptrch]

So, in a civilized situation such as the California fires.

What is the best thing to do?

Fire lines would be roads, right... unless wind...

if you had a long line of houses do you just pick one and say here's where we fight?

I suppose dozing em don't work.

All comes down to the terrain and conditions it guess, I certainly don't envy any incident command on a big fire, has to be a lot like running old school trench warfare, sacrificing a little here to save a lot over there.

60mph offshore winds with RH in low teens. Pray for defensible space !!

Roads if your fast enough to fire-off them
It blew downhill across a 7 lane Hwy and into a tight neighborhood and destroyed over 500 houses and 100 commercial buildings

You need a terrain, topography and continuity change to stop that




Erik

 

[chipper1]

898 dispatch calls received the first nite

We did 3 hours on a fire on Hwy 37 before even making it to our original assignment @0400
We had already been at work 40 hours and went 110 hours before relief.

I just drove thru one of the hilly areas we were sent.
36 of 52 homes damaged with 9 engines trying to slow it.
Talked with a lady and her young daughter amid the destruction and now, constant ongoing demolition. Hers was 1 of the 14 that survived that morning and next day.
I told her I had been in, on and around her house that night, 200’ with a hose line away from my engine, while my partner was 200’ the other way on another yard.
She hugged me and cried
Yes I did have pictures from that night, and I showed her what it looked like. She hugged me again and said “Thank You , we are blessed , I’m so sad but thankful” I told her thank you for that..it meant a lot

Their area

figuring the layout

Her yard and neighbors house ablaze

We then moved on


Erik

Good work buddy .

 

[madhatte]

if you had a long line of houses do you just pick one and say here's where we fight?

Yes, it's called structure triage. Some houses are simply not worth defending, due to fuels, egress, etc. This is part of the assessment process and the ultimate responsibility for this decision lies on the incident commander.

Even in the best case you're still at the mercy of the elements. We've lost fires across perfect dozer lines overnight because a tree burned out and brought fire with it when it fell between shifts. Treat every day on a continuing incident like it's a new fire. TAKE NOTHING FOR GRANTED. Pay attention at daily briefings. Delegate as necessary in order to preserve span of control. Remember that winds change. Study fuels obsessively. Listen to the chatter on the radio. Write down as much as possible, and NOTE THE TIME. Pay attention to any information regarding weather. Recall everything you've seen before, and note how today is different. Plan for the worst. Worry more about the folks below you than those above you. Be ready for the AAR. PROTECT YOUR TEAM at all costs -- you all need each other. Direct the public to PAO whenever you can -- that's their job. Avoid contacting anybody more than one level above you in the chain-of-command, especially by radio. BE GOOD TO YOUR EQUIPMENT OPERATORS. Watch the color of the smoke. Drink more water than you think you need to. Lather, rinse and repeat from day to day and season to season.

 

[northmanlogging]

Smoke color? I get black grey white, but have no idea what they mean on a forest fire. House fires, black is generally plastics or other chemicals Grey sort of mostly wood, white generally its burning out or is getting water on it.

I've only been near a few Forest fires, and don't remember or didn't pay enough attention to the details, as well ders a whole lotta **** going down at once.