Frustrated, need to vent

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Treeman82,

There are two suggestions, both won't provide immediate resolve to your challenge.

1. Regulation

It is amazing to think that arboriculture or tree work is unregulated. Basically anyone with a chain saw and a little mixed fuel can do this kind of work. Here in Canada, we only have one province that regulated the industry, Manitoba. There you must be licensed and meet other requirements (i.e. liability insurance, etc.). Should tree service be a more regulated industry? If you and others in your area think so, lobby accordingly.

Regulation is a good thing if it is applied fairly and with high, enforceable penalties. Here in Texas the tattoo industry was unregulated when I first got into it. Later, a legislator from a very conservative district discovered that, and took steps to change it. The problem is that once the legislation was in effect, and regulations as well, funding was very low for enforcement, and the whole thing became a joke. My shop was inspected three times in ten years! The inspectors were kids just out of college and they moved on as soon as another opportunity came along. In fact, the health department itself was reorganized a few times and the tattoo regulatory department changed hands several times to the point where nobody knew what he/she was doing. A few years ago, the legislature even passed a law that each tattooist and piercer needed to be licensed (in addition to each shop), failed to fund that program and that forced the health department, literally, to send out a notice saying, "Nevermind!"

The point here is that regulations for our industry, and here I'm refering to urban arboriculture, would be a tough sell, as far as enforcement. I know you need licensing in some towns, but I'm reasonably sure that inspectors in those programs probably have better things to do then roam the streets looking for hacks with chainsaws, dropping trees for $100 cash. In larger cities, it would be so hit or miss when it came to catching violators that the program would be a joke as it was in my old industry. Remember, a program gets funded if the public demands it. As long as the public can save some $$$ with the hacks, they're happy. If a tragedy occurs, there might be an outcry and a subsequent push for regulatory legislation, but the public has a short memory, and very soon it's business as usual.

Another point: The big boys, Asplundh, Davey, et al, have sweetheart contracts all over the USA. They're in bed with local and national politicians, no doubt about it. You can bet that any regulations passed would give them an even greater competitive advantage than they now have. When it comes to their prices: In tight markets, they can always cruise and still put their $5000/mo. ads in the Yellow Pages because in other markets they keep very busy with commercial work. It's frustrating, I know.

Ultimately and unfortunately, it all comes down to what I posted earlier: If you are constantly underbid in your market, you either drop your prices thus lowering your living standards over the long-run, or get into another line of work. It really is that simple.
 
Ultimately and unfortunately, it all comes down to what I posted earlier: If you are constantly underbid in your market, you either drop your prices thus lowering your living standards over the long-run, or get into another line of work. It really is that simple.

Where I come from there is another option...........but what with everyone's propensity in this country to hide behind lawyers and cops and to sue at the drop of a hat........I can't!
 
Where I come from there is another option...........but what with everyone's propensity in this country to hide behind lawyers and cops and to sue at the drop of a hat........I can't!

LOL! Yeah, I come from Chicago, bro, so I know what of you speak. In the old days, if you weren't connected in Chi Town, you didn't work, if you were seeking work in one of the "selected" fields. Well, you could work, but only until you had your fingers broken or turned up floating in the Chicago River.
 
LOL! Yeah, I come from Chicago, bro, so I know what of you speak. In the old days, if you weren't connected in Chi Town, you didn't work, if you were seeking work in one of the "selected" fields. Well, you could work, but only until you had your fingers broken or turned up floating in the Chicago River.

That's funny sh*t, sounds just like the ass end of south east London where I grew up and first started climbing! Piss the wrong people off and, well, you know....... Alot of gypsies or 'pikeys' used to be in the business, travel from place to place, not give a toss about tree or client.......but if you got on 'their' patch.......wave bye bye to all your gear and even your truck if they felt like it, or have to start a full scale war with them just to keep your livelyhood.
 
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Gicon, I took the work from these guys because it's climbing work, and they pay well for that.

In regards to your other question about having enough work... yeah, I am having a bit of a problem finding work for myself. Around here I get some referrals, but not many, and I chose not to advertise. The sick thing about down here is I have some family who I did a bunch of work for this past spring. Saved them a bunch of money, and they have PLENTY of it. Asked if they could get me some business with their friends or neighbors... not a one. Meanwhile I go up to this other area which is where I intend to focus my energy this year, don't have to ask for referrals... either the people find me, or my customers find them.
 
To have sustained growth in a tight market there are some attitudes one might want to adopt.

We're not the biggest or make the most money, but we have grown 8 out of the last 10 years with better than a 30% increase in sales last year and I attribute all that success to a mindset that includes the following observations, or more appropriately attitudes.

  • If the customer is looking for the lowest bid, they don't want we sell.
  • Educate the customer on the value of qualified, quality work
  • I know what my market is and I own it.
  • I own my market therefore I NEVER compete with the Lowballers.
  • Never lower your original bid
  • Remove services or add homeowner sweat equity on a bid to lower costs
  • I own my market therefore I Never compete with the "Big Guys"
  • I own my market therefore Nobody Competes with me.
  • No matter how bad the News says the recession is, you are not obligated to participate in it.
  • The next economic boom is waiting for you to start it.
  • My service is the best quality, best priced and least risky for the customer
  • I advertise to attract the quality of customer I want to serve
  • I advertise to discourage the type of customer I know will not be happy with my work or pricing.
  • Never advertise FREE anything.
  • Deliver a little more than you promised
  • Every sale is mine, I just have to cultivate it and harvest it with care and consideration.
  • Every time a customer does not think to call me for a quote I lose that job.
  • Customers will not call me unless they have heard about me, regularly
  • Chances are that the lowball buyers will also be the first ones to give you a hard time about the quality of your work so why worry about getting thier work?
  • Don't screw your neighbor
  • Don't Screw your customer
  • Don't screw the other people trying to get a part of your market
  • Define your market and act like you own it! And soon you will.

Of course there are many times that I will run into another company bidding on the same job as me. Invariably, when I lose out on the job it was not one I wanted in the first place or one that I could effeciently handle.

And occasionally, a job that I wanted will slip through my fingers. Funny thing is that when that happens, we are not talking huge differences in price.

That simply means I failed in my salesmanship. Folks, we are not selling tree work, we are selling a relationship. We are selling reassurance. We are selling ourselves. If the customer believes in us, trusts us and knows that they will get treated well by us then they will Buy us and let us do the work for them.

If they don't like you, then you might not get the sale. If they like you less than Joe Lowball then you definitely won't get the sale. People will buy from people they find likeable.

When the market gets tight I tend to get excited! Why? Because it is my market and I own it!


:deadhorse:
 
Gicon--I resent your representation on circus clowns. I love circus clowns. Until all arborists love all clowns, we will never establish meaningful dialogue.
 
Life Is Tough

I have my own company going right now, but also work for about 4? other companies as a sub. Some of them frustrate the hell out of me and I just need to vent.

1) Went last week with one guy to a job where he said it was 1 dead pine. Get there and it's a dead blue spruce (he said he thought maybe it was a tamarack?). Then I wound up having to dead wood another blue spruce, only I didn't have a ladder or any throw line with me because I had been told it was 1 dead pine. After that I went and looked at another job with this guy, he had been to the property a few months ago to do some chipping for a landscaper who had decided to just go and rip out "$20K+ in plant material". We get there and there's this NASTY tulip right next to the driveway that you flat out can't miss on your way up to the house. Rotten and cracked he never said anything about it when he was first there. We get up by the house and we need to take down this black oak over the house. No big deal. On the way out though I noticed at LEAST 5 dead red and white oaks over another house on the property, broken branches, dead wood over the patio, etc. etc. Multi million dollar home and he doesn't say a word about any of this potential work. - BTW, no tree insurance.

2) Another guy I do some stuff for... come to find out no insurance, meanwhile he'll bid a big norway maple over a house with confidence and gets it.

3) Another guy I was working for about a month ago, nice open area to fell these couple of maple trees into... of course he hangs it up into another maple, or he'll drop it 90* to the way it has to go... meanwhile he's giving me instruction on how to make a proper back cut. - excavation contractor w/ landscaper's insurance

4) Another guy has a big estate he maintains, used to have a lot of dead trees around the property... "The lady will never go for it." Sure enough one day we are there doing some other work, and Ira Wickes Tree Service was there from across the river taking down those very trees.

5) I gave a price to a guy about 10 days ago for some branches over the house and doing some crown reduction on a norway spruce to prolong failure. Told him $1200 and got it. Then he gets other prices and somebody told him $800. He calls me today and says I can have the job for $800 if I want it. He wants me to make the spruce look like a christmas tree, yeah. right.

Meanwhile I just spoke with my insurance agent on Saturday (she treats me like gold) and I'm increasing my limits with her because I feel that it's the responsible thing to do. So that means it's gonna be probably $7,000 for my liablity when the guys I am competing against are paying $2,000 for theirs, or nothing at all.

I was talking with a friend this afternoon and expressed my frustration... he said the feeling is a common one today. So many guys are doing this now and when he and others go out they aren't bidding against 1 or 2 other guys. Some people are willing to work for nothing, but some don't want to and have been quiet because of the fact. For me it's not so much the numbers part... I mean yeah, I bid a job for $X and find out somebody else got the job for not even half that... it sucks. But to be out there doing this and strugging to get work when the unqualified / uninsured guys are getting plenty of nice jobs... that's what really irks me.Suck It Up
 
In order to beat the other guy you have to give value first, sell your expertise,not your price. Support your price using testimonials about your service, knowledge, clean up, etc... Start with quality and value, back it up with the best service. Ask "if all bids are within 10% of one another, would you consider dropping the lowest price and selecting who you think would have the best service, the best people to work with, the most knowledgeable?" What is there to lose? Don't talk bad about the other guy, follow up after meeting with a prospect, follow up after the job is complete. Under promise what you can do, then over deliver when doing the work. Take care of problems and complaints within 24-48 hours. Ask your loyal customers to bring you one new customer just like them next year. Be yourself, build confidence in your service. Word travels fast about a good experience with a service provider.
 
Bread And Butter

I know what you mean, but even the big co.`s are doing this, under biddin each other!! its a race to the bottom i tell ya!!! take care & be safe!!!What else is new. At least we have our pride. I'm hungry
 
To have sustained growth in a tight market there are some attitudes one might want to adopt.

We're not the biggest or make the most money, but we have grown 8 out of the last 10 years with better than a 30% increase in sales last year and I attribute all that success to a mindset that includes the following observations, or more appropriately attitudes.

  • If the customer is looking for the lowest bid, they don't want we sell.
  • Educate the customer on the value of qualified, quality work
  • I know what my market is and I own it.
  • I own my market therefore I NEVER compete with the Lowballers.
  • Never lower your original bid
  • Remove services or add homeowner sweat equity on a bid to lower costs
  • I own my market therefore I Never compete with the "Big Guys"
  • I own my market therefore Nobody Competes with me.
  • No matter how bad the News says the recession is, you are not obligated to participate in it.
  • The next economic boom is waiting for you to start it.
  • My service is the best quality, best priced and least risky for the customer
  • I advertise to attract the quality of customer I want to serve
  • I advertise to discourage the type of customer I know will not be happy with my work or pricing.
  • Never advertise FREE anything.
  • Deliver a little more than you promised
  • Every sale is mine, I just have to cultivate it and harvest it with care and consideration.
  • Every time a customer does not think to call me for a quote I lose that job.
  • Customers will not call me unless they have heard about me, regularly
  • Chances are that the lowball buyers will also be the first ones to give you a hard time about the quality of your work so why worry about getting thier work?
  • Don't screw your neighbor
  • Don't Screw your customer
  • Don't screw the other people trying to get a part of your market
  • Define your market and act like you own it! And soon you will.

Of course there are many times that I will run into another company bidding on the same job as me. Invariably, when I lose out on the job it was not one I wanted in the first place or one that I could effeciently handle.

And occasionally, a job that I wanted will slip through my fingers. Funny thing is that when that happens, we are not talking huge differences in price.

That simply means I failed in my salesmanship. Folks, we are not selling tree work, we are selling a relationship. We are selling reassurance. We are selling ourselves. If the customer believes in us, trusts us and knows that they will get treated well by us then they will Buy us and let us do the work for them.

If they don't like you, then you might not get the sale. If they like you less than Joe Lowball then you definitely won't get the sale. People will buy from people they find likeable.

When the market gets tight I tend to get excited! Why? Because it is my market and I own it!


:deadhorse:

Well said that man!!:clap:
 
RFWood,
In a past career, I did a lot of work & seminars in marketing (guerilla, niche, owning your market, etc).
I couldn't have said it better . . . Read what he wrote he's got it nailed!

It takes time to own your market, but if you direct your energies towards that goal it will happen.

The lowballers are not your competition, unless you also want to be a lowballer. Rise above them, build a great reputation, educate during estimates and the work will come.
 
Gicon, I took the work from these guys because it's climbing work, and they pay well for that.

In regards to your other question about having enough work... yeah, I am having a bit of a problem finding work for myself. Around here I get some referrals, but not many, and I chose not to advertise. The sick thing about down here is I have some family who I did a bunch of work for this past spring. Saved them a bunch of money, and they have PLENTY of it. Asked if they could get me some business with their friends or neighbors... not a one. Meanwhile I go up to this other area which is where I intend to focus my energy this year, don't have to ask for referrals... either the people find me, or my customers find them.
yeah i was so disgusted working for clowns one year i told them all, 350.00 to get me to step off my front porch then lunch a host of demands sixpacks after and a day rate discussed upon seeing the job, if they didnt agree with the day rate the 350.00 was nonrefundable, it still sucked however i felt better taking their money and making there life difficult, this still sucked because i was delivering a product for idiots and i refuse to do it anymore one suggestion is to go direct with client in the case of the removals( she will never go for it) and tell the clowns that what ever your able to sell to the client you will share with them
 
feller, not sure I understand your point "what else is new atleast we have our pride, Im hungry"

GENTLEMEN/LADIES heres your problem!!!! those underbidding you are proud and hungry. Damn tommorrow im gonna work for a bologna sandwich!!! pride uhh? undermining a trade that has a bad enough rep. just for what it is(tree work) let alone lowballing just to get a job(probably because the knowledge and talent of the cutthroat`s SUCK).

I hope your point is different than what it seemed to convey, please elaborate!!

LXT.........................whatta rush......:angry:
 
I was talking with the first guy yesterday. I had told him that for the tulip, the black oak, and a little bit of vista work he needed to get $10,000 - $12,000 because the crane bill would probably be around $2,000. Apparently another company bid the job at $8,800 like I knew somebody would if they had their own crane and log truck. Now this guy wants to bid the job at $8,000. When I asked him about all the other work.... he wants to wait on that for a while... future work. Yeah, maybe future work for when it fails and lands on the house.
 
M y Point

feller, not sure I understand your point "what else is new atleast we have our pride, Im hungry"

GENTLEMEN/LADIES heres your problem!!!! those underbidding you are proud and hungry. Damn tommorrow im gonna work for a bologna sandwich!!! pride uhh? undermining a trade that has a bad enough rep. just for what it is(tree work) let alone lowballing just to get a job(probably because the knowledge and talent of the cutthroat`s SUCK).

I hope your point is different than what it seemed to convey, please elaborate!!

LXT.........................whatta rush......:angry:
What I was getting at is that there will always be people underbidding you here and there. This is how business works. Theres no use getting frustrated by it. But I have pride in my work, and if someone else does an inferior job after underbidding me, the customer will learn that you get what you pay for. "Im hungry" was just my way of saying that sometimes my pride costs me a job now and then.
 
I was talking with the first guy yesterday. I had told him that for the tulip, the black oak, and a little bit of vista work he needed to get $10,000 - $12,000 because the crane bill would probably be around $2,000. Apparently another company bid the job at $8,800 like I knew somebody would if they had their own crane and log truck. Now this guy wants to bid the job at $8,000. When I asked him about all the other work.... he wants to wait on that for a while... future work. Yeah, maybe future work for when it fails and lands on the house.
holy! omigod if this guy's giving ya that much run around, i'll sub you my crane for to the trades prices so you at least stay safe and get some work outta this clown, if ya can back out i would consider it. j
 
Take their work

I have crossed over and began to take their work. Since I own a track loader I can bid all sorts of outdoor projects thatb the landscapers also bid such as ponds, retaining walls, playgounds, etc... And I typically do it better than they do from what I have compared myself to.

The nice thing is that if a customer wants a patio or something and there are trees in the area that have to be removed I will combine it into a package and say now if you hire landscaper "A" then they will have to sub out the tree work and it will cost more. Also, You will only be dealing with one company, me.

I know not everyone would want to do this but I have not only found it stimulating to do other types of work but it fills the dry spells in tree work.
 
I was driving down a main road today and saw a local landscraping company doing tree work. 1 guy on the ground had a hard hat. The guy in the tree (a removal) no hardhat, he did have a saddle (I was SHOCKED) a POS lanyard, no climbing line, etc. That was kind of disappointing especially seeing as how this was at a small time nursery / fruit stand. I was also talking with one of the guys from the shop a few weeks ago. He says guys come in wanting to rent ropes, spurs, saddles, etc.
 
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