GPS and Tail Trees

[madhatte]

Our crew uses GPS all the time, for all sales.

We use the Trimble GeoXx series units, and swap between Trimble TerraSync, ESRI ArcPad, and FMRC TwoTrails software depending on the application. TwoTrails is probably my favorite -- it's USFS free software still in Beta and you can do traverses using compass and pacing while opening and closing with GPS points. That means you don't need a clear view of the sky to mark a boundary. Some of the software is spendy -- TerraSync is like 2 grand but is super accurate (like as in <6 in, post-processed).

Your mileage may vary, but on the whole, I really like GPS as a field tool, and I also like being able to add my field data to a GIS database. Saves time reinventing the wheel later. Also makes it easier to look over stands for planning purposes from the comfort of the office.

 

[oregoncutter]

Thunderbird Red!

When I was working I would have been happy to just have the tower painted a color that didn't blend with the fog. I liked Skagits but who ever came up with the idea of painting them white was clearly out to lunch.

Most the yarders I hooked under were thunderbirds with the gantry tops painted red. Didn't allways help much since Southwest Oregon gets it's fair share of fog as well. Did alot of standing at the yarder and picking a line to a fixed high object or getting on a high spot and finding a waypoint in reference to the yarder setting, then between using a compass alot of ribbon, and some good guesses. I never sidewashed or hung down on anything to bad. I was only a Hooktender when I had to be though not my cup of tea.

 

[Humptulips]

Sometimes the bright paint doesn't even help.
I was working for a company about 1980 and they switched me to another side, a Skoomum-Tyee slackline on a sale called mystic, It was aptly named. We were yarding in along the road and the shovel was about 50 feet in front of the yarder. We would pull up in the crummy and bail out over the hill. I would head to the back end. I never saw the yarder for the first week and only then because I had to go up and move a guyline. Totally socked in foggy all day every day. Kinda spooky as you couldn't see anything beyond about 40 feet.

 

[RPM]

Slowp ... staff compass and steel chain. That was my introduction to engineering on the coast ... once! I run the corridors in once kinda like a P line if i can't see end to end and then fine tune the other way out with the corridor flagging. We clear cut mostly around here but are starting to have do partial removals for "asthetic" purposes

 

[slowp]

My first attempt at locating the tail tree from the yarder with the GPS was a flop. The GPS had no trouble locating satellites in the timber. But, in my hurry to get up the hill, I forgot my idiot notes. So, I winged it.

I marked a waypoint at the tree then hustled up the hill to the landing. I marked a waypoint at the landing and thought I had a bearing to head back to the tree. NOT. I was about 150 feet off. I was hungry so wandered back down to the pickup and headed down the icy section of road.

While munching on my sandwich, I played with the GPS and think I found a better way. I even wrote it down. If there isn't too much snow, I'll try again tomorrow. I should be able to take a bearing from the tree to the yarder tomorrow.

 

[WoodchuckVT]

Excuse Me,for what it's worth

First off, I am not a logger, I just cut alot of firewood. That said, I have had some experience with a compass and GPS. I have hunted in a 30,000 acre forest for over 30 years. A compass and an azimuth, still need an orientated map to be "somewhat" accurate, hence survey equipment. A GPS {consumer type} is only "close", even on a good day. The Government system, {which we are not allowed to have}, the ones that allow bombers to drop bombs down chimneys' are within 3 to 6 feet. Just because your GPS says it is accurate to 10 ft. , it is not. Try this simple experiment. Drive a post and marker, in the middle of a large opening. Take a waypoint. Leave the GPS unit on. Walk or drive a quarter of a mile. Press the "go to" button, and see how close you come to it. Now try this in the woods. I am not trying to be a know it all," just sayin". You guys do what you do well, and I will now mind my own business. God Speed, VT. Woodchuck

 

[slowp]

First off, I am not a logger, I just cut alot of firewood. That said, I have had some experience with a compass and GPS. I have hunted in a 30,000 acre forest for over 30 years. A compass and an azimuth, still need an orientated map to be "somewhat" accurate, hence survey equipment. A GPS {consumer type} is only "close", even on a good day. The Government system, {which we are not allowed to have}, the ones that allow bombers to drop bombs down chimneys' are within 3 to 6 feet. Just because your GPS says it is accurate to 10 ft. , it is not. Try this simple experiment. Drive a post and marker, in the middle of a large opening. Take a waypoint. Leave the GPS unit on. Walk or drive a quarter of a mile. Press the "go to" button, and see how close you come to it. Now try this in the woods. I am not trying to be a know it all," just sayin". You guys do what you do well, and I will now mind my own business. God Speed, VT. Woodchuck

That's what I'm trying to do. The "Post" is a five foot diameter doug-fir or if going up, the yarder. I have heard this can be done. I have operated the Trimbles which are the extreme accuracy brand and very spendy, but just for mapping roads or, figurring out where I was in a unit. I had a hard time navigating back east where there are no landmarks to be seen, or hills.

Oregon State University did a study of "cheap" GPS units a few years ago. Unfortunately, the Garmin did not come out on top. I'm hoping things have improved since then. I'll try again today. My method is not to navigate by the GPS but to only get a compass bearing from it that will bring me out at my fence post. Then I go to the usual method of running a straight line, my trusty Silva compass.

The thing beeps about 200 feet from the "post" and says you are very close.

 

[WoodchuckVT]

Gps

That's what I'm trying to do. The "Post" is a five foot diameter doug-fir or if going up, the yarder. I have heard this can be done. I have operated the Trimbles which are the extreme accuracy brand and very spendy, but just for mapping roads or, figurring out where I was in a unit. I had a hard time navigating back east where there are no landmarks to be seen, or hills.

Oregon State University did a study of "cheap" GPS units a few years ago. Unfortunately, the Garmin did not come out on top. I'm hoping things have improved since then. I'll try again today. My method is not to navigate by the GPS but to only get a compass bearing from it that will bring me out at my fence post. Then I go to the usual method of running a straight line, my trusty Silva compass.

The thing beeps about 200 feet from the "post" and says you are very close.

My point of the post was that I have tried that with several different GPS units of different brands, as well as my friends trying it, and none of us have "hit the mark" yet. I have a few friends that are surveyors, they use them constantly on larger tracks of land and say they are "close enough". Scary huh?
What I have found that works the best, as being old school map and compass, is to get your waypoint with your GPS, then for future reference, turn on your GPS and let it find as many satellites as possible. In your menu of your GPS, under setup, are two very important steps. The first is the choice of "true north" or magnetic north. you must choose magnetic as you are using your compass with the GPS. The second step is to set your screen or page menu to show the azimuth, this step varies by Brand of unit, but can be done on all of them. Then the next start up of the GPS will give you more accurate information for what you are trying to do. I have had better luck this way as I always trust my compass and it does not fade in or out and "lose Signal". Plus a compass orientates faster than a GPS. Hope this helps, and hope I didn't bore you death!! VT. Woodchuck

 

[slowp]

Success

Well, today's trial worked. I remembered the OSU guy saying I would need to get several points at the tree. Since the Garmin doesn't click, I punched it in and out of a page that gives the azimuth to the yarder a few times, then took the average azimuth and then switched to my trusty Silva Ranger Compass and flagged my way ahead. I came out where I could get a bead on the yarder, so it will work if the logger chooses to go that route.

The bad news is that it came out onto the edge of a logged corridor and will cause that corridor to become a bit wider for a ways. Good tail trees are dear for the rest of that unit so we might have to use it. Here's some pictures from the two days of wandering about.

This is the Cedar where I have to say NO. The logger jokes about taking it.

Here is the suitable tail tree. It is a Douglas-fir.

The yarder is up yonder somewhere.

Almost up on the landing. I wasn't running a line. I needed to get a waypoint at the yarder.

 

[slowp]

I used hard to see yellow flagging. It won't be confused with any flagging that is already in the unit. The huckleberry brush doesn't have leaves right now, but here's a bad photo of trying to look back and do a backsight to make sure my line is straight. I'm near-sighted so have to flag closer due to that also.

Here's a younger tail tree in use, or ready for use. Operations were shut down for the winter that hasn't happened--much.

And the rigging holding the line around the anchor.

The Chevy did not do any sledding today.

 

[Humptulips]

A question.
I never thinned on the FS but only on private or state land. I or the owner of the company always ran the corridors. It wood seem to me to be the way to do it. That way you get them where and how wide you want.
Is it the policy on all FS sales for the sale administrator or what ever your job title is to run the corridors and if so does the contractor have say in where they are located?

And by the way you should mark that cedar to go. It looks like a safety issue.

 

[slowp]

Nope. I usually never run corridors. I wanted to see if it could be done with the GPS. I had the time, so thought I'd give it a whirl. It just seemed like there had to be a better way than going up and down over and over in search of a good corridor location. I usually just paint the trees to cut for them.

Most of the bigger outfits have hooktenders who seem to have good homing instincts.

Nah, if that cedar got cut, it might land on a huckleberry bush.

 

[slowp]

Update

Today, the loggers had 4 corridors to lay out. Once again, tail trees were scarce and hard to find. This time, I went to the tail tree, got an azimuth reading for going back up to the yarder and they set their compass to it and ran the corridors. It worked every time. I think I've got it figured out.:wave: