hand filing

[WMTP]

I file with a file only no guages or anything always works good for me rakers also.

 

[SteveBullman]

Anyone ever have the same experience I have had with cutting burned or charred wood. Takes the edge right off a chain and it seems it can never be sharpened again. I usually run into this when people try unsucessfully try to burn a high stump, big log or insurance work where a house has caught fire and killed a nearby tree. If you clean the area to be cut with a hatchet or axe you can get through the cut but the chain still take a beating and is never really the same afterwards.

Can some one explain what might be going on here??

Larry

i have a burnt acacia to climb and dismantle next week....not looking forward to the job for that reason.....and the fact that all my gear is going to get covered in soot

 

[Ekka]

Whenever some yahoo grinds my chain and pushes to hard with the grinder (instead of making several very light taps), the cutter gets discolored and so hard I can't file it. I have to grind past the discoloring and then I can file it again. What's up with that?

I grind the bulk of my chains with an Oregon bench mounted sharpening machine, I touch up file in the field but by the weekend we can have 10 to 20 chains to sharpen.

What I have learnt is you have to frequently dress the grinding wheel, I dress it almost every chain, just a quick lick with a dressing stone so I keep getting a nice clean wheel. Only dress the bottom of the wheel and never the sides.

What happens is the material you have ground off (including sap etc) is filling the gaps in the grit of the wheel, once this gets bad (the wheels looks black) the cutting action is severely compromised and the grinding wheel will tend to rub not cut ... you'll blue up the tooth and bur the edge. Just like a file full of filings.

Small cuts is what is required and sometimes the chain has to go around a few times if you've hit stones etc.

The other thing I've found is you have to dress the bottom of the wheel with a large radius, if you dress it so it matches a file you'll soon discover that the wheel flexes and the side of the wheel will start to do the cutting not the bottom.

Use both sides of the wheel to get a longer life, I turn it around when I change sides of the chain.

Also when using these machines it's important to know which way to grind, into to the tooth or away from the tooth. I'm sure the book says away from the tooth but I grind into the tooth (I've found this better), and make sure the wheel is spinning in the right direction ... into the cut.

Make sure the left and right teeth are the same in size (length).

After all of these years I'm still the only one that sharpens chains properly on this machine. I show staff repeatedly but they get lazy and end up doing a crappy job, you have to be meticulous.

And I hand file the rakers last.

 

[Stumper]

Anyone ever have the same experience I have had with cutting burned or charred wood. Takes the edge right off a chain and it seems it can never be sharpened again. I usually run into this when people try unsucessfully try to burn a high stump, big log or insurance work where a house has caught fire and killed a nearby tree. If you clean the area to be cut with a hatchet or axe you can get through the cut but the chain still take a beating and is never really the same afterwards.

Can some one explain what might be going on here??

Larry

Larry, I've experienced hard cutting in charred wood and mild dulling but never an ongoing problem with the chain. Charring crystalizes carbon which can be abrasive-which accounts for dulling. High temps below the surface(so that the wood is shielded from oxidizing) can polymerize wood making it more cut resistant. Strength an toughness go up but it isn't generally an extreme change.

 

[Ax-man]

Thanks Justin, I knew carbon played a role in this but that was as far as I could go with it, with your explanation I have a few more details. Getting a customer to understand this concept is going to be another challenge.

Larry

 

[Ax-man]

Getting back on topic here, I have tried different things over the years like different file holders, even have one of those 12V grinders but keeping track of those those stones and that little wrench got to be a hassle after awhile.

Even sharpening with bench or stand up grinder can get involved with taking chains off saws, putting them back on, changing and dressing wheels. Seems to be quicker to use a few basic tools when you only need to sharpen a few saws.

To me it is just simplier and easier to use the basic tools, like these. Homelite file holders with Sthil files, Sthil filing gauge for checking top and side plate angles and for the rakers, the reason for two is the setting for .404 is a little different than for the 3/8 ths and .325 chains, flat mill bastard file from Nickelson to take down the rakers, that little line level I use to put on top of the file gauge to make sure the mid section of the bar is level when I get a chance to use a vise. The rest is just practice, pratice and more practice.

Larry

 

[Lumberjack]

Larry, profound statement that using the tools made for the job makes the job easier and have better results. Seems some cant grasp that.


About file chatter, file the raker at an angle and use a high quality, sharp fine file. I would think that the cross hatch (think its called a b astard file) pattern might be smoother.

 

[rahtreelimbs]

I get chatter on the rakers when they are filed in the wrong direction. They should be filed with the angle of the cutter!

 

[clearance]

Mike Maas- you let some yahoo grind your chains, way to go. I know I'm just a lowly line hack but I can file a chain just deadly cause I cut lots and lots, unlike treehuggers that use handsaws.

 

[Old Monkey]

We File all of ours by hand.Actually my wife files them.

WOW! You should marry her. :blob5:

I have no love for machine ground chains. I have never seen a saw shop file one chain correctly. Ekka I like what you had to say about dressing the grinding wheel, makes sense. I'd love someone to show me the right way to grind a chain--next time I'm in Australia perhaps. I am a weirdo, I don't like handles or file guides I have a callous on my palm from sharpening saws. I like using a vise but at my current work we only maintain saws in the field. I don't think anyone can accurately file rakers without some kind of guide, counting strokes is very imprecise. A buddy of mine had a dial controlled raker guide so you could adjust your rakers by the type of wood you are cutting. Have any of you guys seen such a tool?

 

[Ekka]

Even sharpening with bench or stand up grinder can get involved with taking chains off saws, putting them back on, changing and dressing wheels. Seems to be quicker to use a few basic tools when you only need to sharpen a few saws.

Larry

Depends what your cutting and how long that chains been on the bar.

Have you noticed in the bottom of the chains drivers there's a hole, that's the oil carrier hole.

I find removing the chain is a healthy habit as you clean out the bar and clean out the holes in the chain as they get blocked. Also gives you the opportunity to de-burr the bar, flip it over, clean out the oil hole and check the nose sprocket is lubricated and OK.

Some guys put a new chain on and almost wont take it off until there's nothing left to file!

Out eucs our tough customers with sap like glue and are extremely hard. It's a good habit to get those blunt chains off, clean things up and get a sharp chain on ... too often do I see contractors slamming the bar into the log and pulling on the saw trying to get the chain to rotate, it's hardly oiling etc .... tch tch tch, just lazy to pull it apart.

 

[Tree Machine]

That's why you're here.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Mike Maas- you let some yahoo grind your chains, way to go. I know I'm just a lowly line hack but I can file a chain just deadly cause I cut lots and lots, unlike treehuggers that use handsaws.

You bring up an excellent point, a good sawyer won't have to sharpen his saw much. Keeping it out of the dirt on every cut will help it stay sharp all day. LOL!

Doing a lot of residential work means hitting concrete, nails, hamock screws, birdfeeder brackets and other stuff, a lot. If I totally rock out a chain, chances are I'm not fixing it, it's cheaper to have someone else grind it, or throw it away.
Funny thing about sharpening chains, no matter how good you think you are, there are lots of people better than you.

 

[Tree Machine]

Just stay with this thread GICON.

Sharpening a chain is anything but rocket science. I'm not saying there's little skill in it, but boiling it all down, the first tooth sharpened should (ideally) be done right, and the rest essentially identical.

I think we can all acheive a high level of proficiency. Most of us are starting from the same platform: two hands and a file. Why do the results vary so much?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Tree Machine, get a nice straight log, no knots, no taper, and strap it to an immovable object, so the end sticks out a few feet. Now take a new chain and cut a few cookies while your wife times you with a stopwatch.
Now file it and time some more cuts. Did you cut at least twice as fast? If not, you have more to learn.

 

[Tree Machine]

Mike Maas, I don't sharpen a new chain, even though I prefer a chain I've sharpened over that of one that is new, out of the box. This goes along with GICON's friend believing that he can sharpen better than that of the factory. It is true, but realistically, there's not <i>that much</i> difference, not enough to double the speed of a cut anyway.

The real difference is in the height of the rakers. If the height between the top of the raker and the top of the cutting tooth is 0.2 mm and I file the raker down another 0.2 mm, then the chain should be able to chisel out twice as much wood. This could double the speed of the cut, all other variables unchanged.

This is why I like my rakers knocked down a bit. Of the thousands of times I've sharpened a chain, I have been unable to get a chain sharper than the time I've sharpened it before. The only real difference I can get is with the height of the raker, but you can take this too far.

The only advance I've been able to achieve was from a suggestion last year by Stumper, who shared that rather than filing level and horizontal (perpendicular), that the tip of the file be tilted <i>downward</i> slightly, about ten degrees.

I don't measure this down-hill measurement, but rather pitch the file just slightly downhill of level. This did make a fraction of a difference, enough that I now employ that method regularly. Thank you, Mr Stumper.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

TM, you have a lot to learn. Racers will often set their chains up to have the rakers higher than the factory setting, how does that work with your "the only thing that matters is the rakers" theory?

Watch out, it can be addictive.

 

[Tree Machine]

What I'm saying is that if the chain's cutting teeth are as sharp as they can be, what else is there that can make a difference?

I would very much enjoy making my chains sharper than what I've been doing. That's why I'm here.

I'm not boasting my skill, but I do feel like I've reached a threshold of maximum sharpness. Anything beyond is going to be fractional.

I'm trying to help the guys who are still struggling with it. And yes, I do have a lot to learn. That's much of the reason I'm here.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Both Oregon and Madsens have real good information on their sites.
Oregon has a manual that is free if you go to a dealer, and all the info in that is on PDF at their site if you dig deep enough.
Practice is good, if you learn theory first. To perfect it, you'll need to time cuts.
Most guys see big chips come out, feel the saw pull like mad and think it's cutting good, it's not until you time the cut that you see it's not.
A well cutting chain first cuts straight, then smooth, and finally fast. You see straight, feel smooth, and time fast.

 

[Tree Machine]

Fair enough

OK. I can see that.

So assuming Mike Maas cuts straight, smooth and fast, what is the difference between you and a guy who's having problems achieving that? What will it take to get everyone cutting straight, smooth and fast? Let's stay with the title of this thread with the aproach that we're hand-filing.