Hickory Question

[ropensaddle]

Is that what I said?


I thought I said that purposefully creating a dangerous situation towards anyone, for any reason was extremely foolish bordering on stupid, and in cases like this most likely criminal.






Thats pretty much standard everywhere, isint it?







Don't ever call me a liberal.


Besides putting words in my mouth, (I never mentioned a pre existing structure, try to follow along.....) your confusing the deliberate act of intending harm towards another (the Biker/Snowmobiler) by stringing wire, felling trees, digging tank traps etc. with assembling a fenced in area meant to hold your livestock?


You cant see the difference here?






A coworkers nephew was nearly decapitated and did loose his jaw while riding in the pines about 10yrs ago. Him and some buddies were riding quads and an adjacent land owner THOUGHT they were on his land and went and strung up a nylon cord across the trail.


The court ruled that this was not proper recourse, but an intentional criminal act. The kid (he was 16 at the time) nearly died from infection, lost three fingers and now has a non functioning jaw (he cant chew solid food) and has trouble swallowing liquids without choking.



I believe the land owner was charged with attempted murder, but plead no contest to a lesser charge of aggravated assault with intent to maim.


He served 3yrs of a 5yr sentence.


The only thing that saved him from a longer sentence or being convicted of attempted murder was that he immediately came forth and confessed and also put some of his possessions up for sale to pay the family's medical bills.




The sad and frightening part of this is that people come off as if they have some kind of right perform this type of Vigilantism because they own property.



.

Yes it is called privacy. A mere century ago land and other
property was protected by weapon the way it should have stayed!
Theft would be eliminated and so would trespassing except with children,
now children are different but should be taught to respect a persons
private property! I feel if you catch a person breaking in your belongings
you should be in the law to dispatch the vermin and protect your place.

 

[Al Smith]

It's not a fence or something that gets you in trouble but a trap type thing would.

Every year it seems like several accidents involving sledders and fences occur.

I had to barricade the lane going to my pond in a former life with a former because I was afraid a sledder would crash through the ice.After finding plexiglas and a blood trail on the ice one day it kind of frightened be to have to fish a body from a 12 foot deep pond one day.A D4 Caterpillar worked very nicely and was very easy to see.

 

[Al Smith]

They are all walnut species not pecan just so you know!

Actually I did not ,now I do,thanks.

 

[goof008]

RBW, sorry for the confusion, but sarcasm doesn't come thru in type form very well. There are no intentions on doing any wire stringing. We have "barricaded" the land where they cross over the two track to get from one piece of property to the other with fallen trees. There used to be a fence (wire) put in a long time ago. It has been pushed down, or fallen down. It will be replaced by orange snow fence in those areas also. The idea is NOT to hurt anyone, but to let them know that we know they were there, and were pissed about it. We will also be going over to talk to them, when we see them out there and let them know the police are involved.

If you're telling me that trees cannot be cut on my property to keep people from further damaging it, than I disagree. If I put up a typical wire fence and they ran into it, is that my fault too. The property is posted with 9'x12" bright yellow signs about every 50-75 feet. There should be no question as to what they are doing is illegal.

It's not my property, I did no cutting, so there will be no Bubba time for me.

And how exactly is it the states issue to keep disrespectful people from damaging this property?

When you ride, watch out for wires!! I'd hate to lose your insightful, non-biased thoughts!

 

[goof008]

Every year you hear, at least around here, about people TRESPASSING and being injured by wires. Most are guid wires for poles, some are all that is left of a hourse fence. My friend was riding up north and was cutting thru a long abandoned farm. He saw the wire just in time to put his head down. The wire hit his helmet and thru him off the machine.
There are plenty of places to ride around here.
And let me restate that this is NOT a kid on a little dirt bike. This is a group of riders that set up an enduro track where they jump logs that are 20" thick. They took the time to post the turns with signs and wrap the trees with yellow "CAUTION" tape. Then they left it all up when they were done. We figured it was prepped for a weekend or two of racing. They had done it the year before, but only came onto the property about 30 feet so we figured no big deal. Now, it's a big deal, and next summer, we will be out there at least every other weekend to make sure it doesn't happen again. All this extra work because some ACLU supporting liberal thinks they should be able to go were they want, and the property owner has no recourse.

 

[habanero]

... Besides putting words in my mouth, (I never mentioned a pre existing structure, try to follow along.....) your confusing the deliberate act of intending harm towards another (the Biker/Snowmobiler) by stringing wire, felling trees, digging tank traps etc. with assembling a fenced in area meant to hold your livestock...

The problem I have with your argument is it is a pretty thin line between stringing fence for the purposes of livestock containment and intentional personal injury. It would seem your argument would leave it up to a jury to decide. A 3 wire fence for horse containment strung through a timber could be pretty hard for a bike rider to see, and it if an injury occured, it could be argued it was put up for the purposes of injury (a bad argument, but many lawsuits hinge on bad arguments).

My whole issue is if the riders are on their own property, there is nothing to worry about. It seems to be a simple solution-stay on your own property (or property for which you have permission to use) and there won't be a problem. And I have had an acquaintance killed by hitting a fence on his snowmobile, so I am intimately familiar with the dangers of that. That's why when I was riding, I stayed off property I wasn't familiar with.

 

[Works4me]

Kind of off topic maybe

Pignut and Bitternut Hickory are slightly different trees

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/DENDRO/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=19

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/DENDRO/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=18

opcorn:

 

[goof008]

Works4me, thanks for the links. It actually was right on subject, originally, but we got very sidetracked.

 

[PA Plumber]

Just a thought on the "sidetracked" part of the thread.

I set up trail cams to help with extra "traffic." Once I had pictures, called the state police and found out the pics could be used for issuing a tresspassing citation. I then called the father of the rider and discussed the situation. He initially tried to lie, but once we got through that, haven't had any more trouble with his son.

There are others, but I have dropped trees on trails, and talked to kids and their parents. Things aren't perfect yet, but much, much better.

I have had my gate broken down 3 times and called the police for the 2nd two times. I have over 400 signs around the perimeter. The policman informed this was adequate and do not string a cable through my existing gate. If they got hurt on the gate, no problem for me. If they got hurt on my gate with an extra cable running through it, could be lots of trouble.

Good luck with this. Yes it is frustrating, but something has been going through my mind a lot lately...

The land isn't really "owned" by us. We are just renting it until we pass on, or we pass it on to another who get to "rent" it for a while.

 

[rguseman]

Your profile says you are an attorney?



What do you handle, divorce?


""In many states, WI is one of them, the landowner has civil immunity if an individual is injured on the landowner's property if they are engaged in a recreational activity.""



So your saying that if you were to garrote someone who is riding on your land and kill them it would just be hunky Dory?



WTF is that?


BS is what that is!



If their on your land and hurt themselves, they hurt themselves, period.



If you know they utilize that area and set out to harm them, you will be found guilty of something, take it to the bank.




Best bet is that if people are riding illeagally, report it to the authorities.


.

First, I NEVER said someone would not be liable if they set out to cause injury to a trespasser. If there was an intent to injure or cause damage of course there would be liability which is why I said it is a bad idea. However, in WI, you are on my property with your snowmobile, dirtbike, ATV, etc. and you run into a tree that I cut down the day before, I would, in all likelihood enjoy immunity under WI's recreational immunity statute. Even if I wouldn't, I will win that case 9 times out of 10 with a jury.

Second, there is a legal doctrine called "assumption of risk". While not a complete defense anymore in WI it allows me to argue that when you trespass on my property you take the property as it is including conditions that unintentionally may cause injury.

Finally, you might be better served in future discussions to not revert to insult to make a point. It detracts from any legitimate points you make. I think all of us here try to help each other by lending there expertise whether it is as an arborist, someone with a firewood operation or even an attorney. FYI I am a civil trial attorney (defense) with numerous jury trials and have handled many cases involving this issue or issues similar to this one. While my experience is in WI, some legal principles are the same wherever you go. I am pretty confident that I know what I am talking about.

I apologize to the rest for the digression from the original thread, but I felt it necessary to defend myself a little.

 

[tree md]

When I was a kid me and my buddies would swim in a rock quarry in the small town where I lived. It was clearly posted but what can I say, we were kids. Sometimes a deputy would drive up on one side of the quarry which could be accessed by a vehicle and try to catch us. We would always jump in and swim to the other side and laugh and wave at the deputy, knowing that he couldn't catch us. When he left, we would swim back across, get our stashed bicycles and ride the gravel road back down the mountain. This happened three or four times until finally the deputy decided to string a cable across the road which had always been there but had not been strung up. All three of us hit the cable full speed on our bikes coming down the mountain. We didn't try to sue or complain. We picked up our bikes, licked our wounds and knew that the deputy got the last laugh that day.

 

[Al Smith]

Kind of off topic maybe

Pignut and Bitternut Hickory are slightly different trees

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/DENDRO/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=19

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/DENDRO/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=18

opcorn:

According to that then,I have four varities of hickory growing in my woods,pignut,bitter nut,shagbark and shell bark.The two varieties of smoother barked hickory I thought to be the same although they are ever so slightly different.Hmm,no wonder there are so many nice plump squirrels.

 

[goof008]

Treemd, this would be more excusable if it were just kids messing around, kids do that. If it were kids, we could go to a house nearby and let the parents know that it isn't appreciated and ask them to stop.
This is grown men who trailer their bikes in, ride for a weekend then go home until the next weekend. The people doing this are adults, and as such, know that what they are doing is wrong and don't care.

 

[PA Plumber]

Just a thought on the "sidetracked" part of the thread.

I set up trail cams to help with extra "traffic." Once I had pictures, called the state police and found out the pics could be used for issuing a tresspassing citation. I then called the father of the rider and discussed the situation. He initially tried to lie, but once we got through that, haven't had any more trouble with his son.

I guess I should clear this up. The son is in his mid twenties. No longer a kid. He was keeping his 4 wheeler at his dad's place and accessing our properting from there. Also, I found a piece of mirror from one of the gate bashings and saw the son's truck had a banged up bumper and broken mirror. Hmmmm.

 

[tree md]

Treemd, this would be more excusable if it were just kids messing around, kids do that. If it were kids, we could go to a house nearby and let the parents know that it isn't appreciated and ask them to stop.
This is grown men who trailer their bikes in, ride for a weekend then go home until the next weekend. The people doing this are adults, and as such, know that what they are doing is wrong and don't care.

I hear ya goof. I am a bowhunter and have had the same problems on my lease. Never had anyone come in a build a dirt track but I have had them come in and ride their dirt bikes while I'm trying to hunt. Very frustrating. Best of luck to you.

Whenever I hear someone talk about land owner's being liable for trespassers I have to calls them as I sees them.... That's got bleeding heart liberal written all over it.

 

[RaisedByWolves]

Whenever I hear someone talk about land owner's being liable for trespassers I have to calls them as I sees them.... That's got bleeding heart liberal written all over it.

For the fourth time, What was being discussed wasnt the simlpe act of someone getting hurt on someones land, it was the issue of delibertly setting traps referenced to here.....

The wire at neck level was though of and may be used if the trees and a visit to the police doesn't solve it.
.

Besides, the fight you and others have is not with the riders, but with your state.




Ill expand on this later, right now I have to go riding.

Now, goof was the only one to inquire about this, which shows hes atleast thinking so ill expand.......




This part of my second post was designed to make you think. Instead, people let their emotions run amok and started veering into areas that were never mentioned.

Lets try to stay focused and discuss where the problem lies.



My statement that this problem has more to do with your (My) local government is a valid one, but one that is largely overlooked and one that can do some good if you will think about it a little bit.



Lets face it, this is a real problem. Dose anyone here have any idea where their local state approved riding area is?


I know where mine is, its 4 friggin hours away! To make matters worse, there is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1500 OHV's per mile of trail in the entire state and in NJ there are over 3000!



Think about this, the state lets the vehicles be sold, they gladly collect the taxes on the bike, clothing, safety equipment etc. Then they take the funds generated by the sale of thousands on OHV's and spend the money BUILDING ROADS!



Wouldnt it make more sense and greatly alleviate this problem if the people were given more places to ride? Face it, people are going to get away with whatever they can, legal, illegal, what have you, This is basic human nature.


OHV enthusiasts have been clamoring for this for decades. the only problem is that the states wont listen to the riders.



I have a feeling that if the landowners could see another side of this and petition their state for legal riding areas They could get something done about this problem. The states will listen to the landowners. $$$=POWER



The states need to either give people places to use these vehicles, or they need to ban the sale/ownership of them, which their not likely to do as this is a billion dollar a year industry.



To sum up my point, By allowing the sale of these vehicles and gladly collecting the taxes without providing proper venues for their use, the states are as big a part of the problem as the riders.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------



As to the property damage mentioned in the beginning of this thread, it would appear to me that this is a case of a poorly laid out GNCC course.

Look up GNCC, bet you didnt even know that these things existed. Cutting and marking trails isint the kind of thing that Weekend Warriors would do, this has all of the hallmarks of a Legitimate temporary offroad course gone wrong.

These courses are generally set up by volunteers who may or may not know how to read a map. In many states the forest rangers will help set up these courses to prevent these types of things from happening, but not all states do this.



.

 

[rguseman]

Ilke it or not, if what was done hurts someone the landowner will be held liable as well as the person who acted on his behalf.

I believe those were your words, RBW.


Seems to me you were the first raise the topic of legal liability.

RBW, I know you aren't finished with your post and you will continue your rant and hurl more personal attacks and insults. If that makes you happy, great, go for it. However, out of respect for the others on this thread, this will be my last post on the topic. Everyone can read what is posted and form their own opinions. Good, bad or indifferent.:deadhorse:

 

[Al Smith]

Oh don't get upset,Wolfie likes to debate things,in a manner of speaking,so does the Mule .I might state an opinion now and then myself,hopefully with a little more finesse than my learned compadres. .

 

[RaisedByWolves]

Ilke it or not, if what was done hurts someone the landowner will be held liable as well as the person who acted on his behalf.

I believe those were your words, RBW.


Seems to me you were the first raise the topic of legal liability.

RBW, I know you aren't finished with your post and you will continue your rant and hurl more personal attacks and insults. If that makes you happy, great, go for it. However, out of respect for the others on this thread, this will be my last post on the topic. Everyone can read what is posted and form their own opinions. Good, bad or indifferent.:deadhorse:

Great, whats your point?


.

 

[rguseman]

For the fourth time, What was being discussed wasnt the simlpe act of someone getting hurt on someones land, it was the issue of delibertly setting traps referenced to here.....












Now, goof was the only one to inquire about this, which shows hes atleast thinking so ill expand.......




This part of my second post was designed to make you think. Instead, people let their emotions run amok and started veering into areas that were never mentioned.

Lets try to stay focused and discuss where the problem lies.



My statement that this problem has more to do with your (My) local government is a valid one, but one that is largely overlooked and one that can do some good if you will think about it a little bit.



Lets face it, this is a real problem. Dose anyone here have any idea where their local state approved riding area is?


I know where mine is, its 4 friggin hours away! To make matters worse, there is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1500 OHV's per mile of trail in the entire state and in NJ there are over 3000!



Think about this, the state lets the vehicles be sold, they gladly collect the taxes on the bike, clothing, safety equipment etc. Then they take the funds generated by the sale of thousands on OHV's and spend the money BUILDING ROADS!



Wouldnt it make more sense and greatly alleviate this problem if the people were given more places to ride? Face it, people are going to get away with whatever they can, legal, illegal, what have you, This is basic human nature.


OHV enthusiasts have been clamoring for this for decades. the only problem is that the states wont listen to the riders.



I have a feeling that if the landowners could see another side of this and petition their state for legal riding areas They could get something done about this problem. The states will listen to the landowners. $$$=POWER



The states need to either give people places to use these vehicles, or they need to ban the sale/ownership of them, which their not likely to do as this is a billion dollar a year industry.



To sum up my point, By allowing the sale of these vehicles and gladly collecting the taxes without providing proper venues for their use, the states are as big a part of the problem as the riders.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------



As to the property damage mentioned in the beginning of this thread, it would appear to me that this is a case of a poorly laid out GNCC course.

Look up GNCC, bet you didnt even know that these things existed. Cutting and marking trails isint the kind of thing that Weekend Warriors would do, this has all of the hallmarks of a Legitimate temporary offroad course gone wrong.

These courses are generally set up by volunteers who may or may not know how to read a map. In many states the forest rangers will help set up these courses to prevent these types of things from happening, but not all states do this.



.

And this is related to the original topic asking a question about types of hickory how?

Might want to review your previous posts before ripping someone for being "off topic".