Hinge Forensics
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stump cuts you love?
The high angle of attack, the one on the left, the backcut starts 8"-12" high and angles down. No way to put a wedge in to give you an assist. The backcut breaks out if you try to tap a wedge in for an assist. The real danger comes later, the stump was not cut flush after the tree fell and if someone falls on it they are more likely to end up with stiches from being cut by the spike left pointed, sharp edge up. The guy should have at least cut the stump flush (level) even if he got the tree down with that lousy cut. The danger is the point sticking up for someone to fall on. Cut it off flat. Remove the accident waiting to happen. The one on the right, sad attempt at a Humbolt, still way high on the backcut. Looks as if the tree had enough lean to go over in the right direction without the facecut. Tearout in the front. The job looks unfinished with the stumps standing there so high. Wonder why he didn't cut them off lower, (ALAP) as low as possible, after the trees were down it doesn't take too much effort to cut the stumps flush. The cuts say he doesn't know any better, he didn't read his manuals that came with his saw, not that he ran out of gas/broke his saw and couldn't finish the job.
The high angle of attack, the one on the left, the backcut starts 8"-12" high and angles down. No way to put a wedge in to give you an assist. The backcut breaks out if you try to tap a wedge in for an assist. The real danger comes later, the stump was not cut flush after the tree fell and if someone falls on it they are more likely to end up with stiches from being cut by the spike left pointed, sharp edge up. The guy should have at least cut the stump flush (level) even if he got the tree down with that lousy cut. The danger is the point sticking up for someone to fall on. Cut it off flat. Remove the accident waiting to happen. The one on the right, sad attempt at a Humbolt, still way high on the backcut. Looks as if the tree had enough lean to go over in the right direction without the facecut. Tearout in the front. The job looks unfinished with the stumps standing there so high. Wonder why he didn't cut them off lower, (ALAP) as low as possible, after the trees were down it doesn't take too much effort to cut the stumps flush. The cuts say he doesn't know any better, he didn't read his manuals that came with his saw, not that he ran out of gas/broke his saw and couldn't finish the job.
Let's go Dutch...
i think Dent ("Professional Timber Falling- a Procedural Approach")leans to a broader term of Dutchman; as any early closing in face; though i think a Swing Dutchman as de-scribed closes on the side in severe sidelean(fierce enough to pinch it closed off end of hinge not maid all the way across).
To this definition, a climber's snap-cut of coming straight down into a kerf of a horizontal limb; is a type of purposeful, early closing/push in face.
Dent talks about crossing cuts as a Kerf Dutchman; noting that it is most likely accidental; though there are purposefull uses. i beleive the first Dutchman he proposes is a step Dutchman with a block of wood in the lean side face; this gives later closing/push than a kerf in that side. i may make a narrow face, then open up offside top imitate the 2 tiered level of closes operating the 2 sides of face independantly 'in tree' a lot.
In using these purposefully, i have found that the 'floor' of the face cut cut too far; gives the mighty push up the spar for this kind of power(Kerf Dutchman). Crossing the top cut too far closes much later (if it does), and pushes across hinge; more like the floor in a 'perfect face/hinge' would push across the hinge fiber from start to finish anyway. The former pushing up the columnar length/strength of the broomstick/spar-at angle it won't give/flex; the latter pushing across the broomstick/spar at angle it will flex/hinge. This, topcut too far, more forgiving as accidental dutchman, not very helpful as purposeful one.
Operating the faces independantly in the 'Step Dutchman' format is awesome; though because of all the warnings i keep it mostly on non-huge and climbing cuts; to respect the warnings by these lower loading ranges. In normal hinging, with a Left side lean; before the faces close, there is some pull towards Left Lean by the hinge; a kerf in face on Left Lean side places push away from Left Lean, where there was pull towards the Left Lean. But, there must be enough speed and force to throw cleanly through the 'step'/kerf to lift/ push cleanly towards center face and not be siezed by the step/kerf! That is why i make a small face, then open the 'go to' side, so the branch can accelerate, and be at different angle, when it hits close on one side, to throw cleanly through the change in direction; and/or run the obstachle gauntlet...
In tree on horizontal sweeps, i'll nip bottom of tapered hinge with saw sometimes. The horizontal target path to the down pull of gravity gives severe 'sidelean' required in Dent's Swing Dutchman; so that the kerf at end of hinge will close before the face so kerf gives push up; lighten hinge's job. If the pressure is not enough to close end of hinge, then you have just shortened leverage of hinge, forced lots of leveraged fiber (because of lack of leverage per same load). Forcing lots of leveraged fiber on short hinge, then end closing to restoring leverage, gives both leverage and mass fiber (when usually you could only get one or the other; as they both multiply out to be equivalent to the load itself). The swing comes in (on ground, not horizontals- won't lift that far), cuz heavy lean side is pushing like hinge pivot, but not attached, so can swing around from it's push of face, pull of mass of fiber, and no attatchment on side swinging from. This only works in severest of sideleans That pinch end of hinge close); so i took it from the ground to the most severely leveraged by sidelean/distracting from path; horizontal rigs etc. for clearing roofs etc.
i think Dent ("Professional Timber Falling- a Procedural Approach")leans to a broader term of Dutchman; as any early closing in face; though i think a Swing Dutchman as de-scribed closes on the side in severe sidelean(fierce enough to pinch it closed off end of hinge not maid all the way across).
To this definition, a climber's snap-cut of coming straight down into a kerf of a horizontal limb; is a type of purposeful, early closing/push in face.
Dent talks about crossing cuts as a Kerf Dutchman; noting that it is most likely accidental; though there are purposefull uses. i beleive the first Dutchman he proposes is a step Dutchman with a block of wood in the lean side face; this gives later closing/push than a kerf in that side. i may make a narrow face, then open up offside top imitate the 2 tiered level of closes operating the 2 sides of face independantly 'in tree' a lot.
In using these purposefully, i have found that the 'floor' of the face cut cut too far; gives the mighty push up the spar for this kind of power(Kerf Dutchman). Crossing the top cut too far closes much later (if it does), and pushes across hinge; more like the floor in a 'perfect face/hinge' would push across the hinge fiber from start to finish anyway. The former pushing up the columnar length/strength of the broomstick/spar-at angle it won't give/flex; the latter pushing across the broomstick/spar at angle it will flex/hinge. This, topcut too far, more forgiving as accidental dutchman, not very helpful as purposeful one.
Operating the faces independantly in the 'Step Dutchman' format is awesome; though because of all the warnings i keep it mostly on non-huge and climbing cuts; to respect the warnings by these lower loading ranges. In normal hinging, with a Left side lean; before the faces close, there is some pull towards Left Lean by the hinge; a kerf in face on Left Lean side places push away from Left Lean, where there was pull towards the Left Lean. But, there must be enough speed and force to throw cleanly through the 'step'/kerf to lift/ push cleanly towards center face and not be siezed by the step/kerf! That is why i make a small face, then open the 'go to' side, so the branch can accelerate, and be at different angle, when it hits close on one side, to throw cleanly through the change in direction; and/or run the obstachle gauntlet...
In tree on horizontal sweeps, i'll nip bottom of tapered hinge with saw sometimes. The horizontal target path to the down pull of gravity gives severe 'sidelean' required in Dent's Swing Dutchman; so that the kerf at end of hinge will close before the face so kerf gives push up; lighten hinge's job. If the pressure is not enough to close end of hinge, then you have just shortened leverage of hinge, forced lots of leveraged fiber (because of lack of leverage per same load). Forcing lots of leveraged fiber on short hinge, then end closing to restoring leverage, gives both leverage and mass fiber (when usually you could only get one or the other; as they both multiply out to be equivalent to the load itself). The swing comes in (on ground, not horizontals- won't lift that far), cuz heavy lean side is pushing like hinge pivot, but not attached, so can swing around from it's push of face, pull of mass of fiber, and no attatchment on side swinging from. This only works in severest of sideleans That pinch end of hinge close); so i took it from the ground to the most severely leveraged by sidelean/distracting from path; horizontal rigs etc. for clearing roofs etc.
jason j ladue
Vanilla Snoop
spyder, i love "listening" to you talk. you are voice to technical concepts i am able only to envision. that is what makes a great teacher. i would like to see some video of the "step dutchman" in use on a BIG one. the thing i enjoy most about this line of work is the tapping into physics. ya know lots of guys tell tall tales, but there is no room for baloney when it's time to get busy. if you say you know how to do it- you better. and if you dont know, you better step down...
Old Monkey
Addicted to ArboristSite
I had the pleasure of doing tree work for my high school physics teacher a few years back. It was good to be able to thank him for his teachings. I may not pull out all the equations but the general principles are there and I use them frequently to try to picture "what is going to happen if I do this?"
Tree Spyder you are the professor here, thanks for your teachings.
Tree Spyder you are the professor here, thanks for your teachings.
ozy365
ArboristSite Operative
Tree spider:
Could you include some diagrams with your teaching? I am wading through your info, but alot of the vocabulary is beyond me and I spent way too long watching the girls in my physics classes to be able to keep up on text alone.
Could you include some diagrams with your teaching? I am wading through your info, but alot of the vocabulary is beyond me and I spent way too long watching the girls in my physics classes to be able to keep up on text alone.
ozy365
ArboristSite Operative
Clearance et al: Thank you for the Vocab Primer
My humble thanks...
May i suggest checking out the "Similar Threads" function/listing at bottom of each thread (like one at base of this page) for further research on hinging etc. (this particular topic).
i assume Ozy365 is asking about pushes in face/dutchmans pix; as most else pictured(?) i have several drawings archived at my sight: MyTreeLessons Archive Dutchmans. i guess it would be a good time for a warning about Barber Chair Forces. Index at bottom of each page.
There are many drawn diagrams, pictures here on hinging and rigging etc.
-KC
May i suggest checking out the "Similar Threads" function/listing at bottom of each thread (like one at base of this page) for further research on hinging etc. (this particular topic).
i assume Ozy365 is asking about pushes in face/dutchmans pix; as most else pictured(?) i have several drawings archived at my sight: MyTreeLessons Archive Dutchmans. i guess it would be a good time for a warning about Barber Chair Forces. Index at bottom of each page.
There are many drawn diagrams, pictures here on hinging and rigging etc.
-KC
ozy365
ArboristSite Operative
Thank you for the link TreeSpyder
1953greg
ArboristSite Guru
im new to this site but not new to felling trees and would appreciate any comments. (example 24" diameter) about 90% of the time i attach cable 1/3 height of tree and use an open face cut (~30* wedge, bottom horizontal) to within about 2" of center of tree, perpendicular to desired fall. then i use plunge cut about 3-4" from face cut and cut outward and stop about 3-4" from edge. then i snug the cable and finish the backcut from the outside. this leaves the 3-4" hinge across the middle of stump for most control. then cable is tightened to pull tree over. sometimes if a lean is great i will throw a rope over the cable and add tangent pull for added control. bout 10% of the time i have plenty of room and cable isnt necessary. i am sure there are simpler methods but this method works for me as i havent lost one yet. came very close once when a tree had more decay on tension side than i had anticipated. am i missing something (or overkill) or am i doing what you guys do and just dont know your nomenclature? all i know how to use is an openface cut, plunge cut, and finish w/backcut cutting outward, leaving a strap to be finished cutting inward.
kadoos to this site/thread and mytreelessons from thetreespyder!!!!!!!
thanks in advance. 1953greg
kadoos to this site/thread and mytreelessons from thetreespyder!!!!!!!
thanks in advance. 1953greg
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The way you described your back cut is how we cut timber in VA. Except we leave about 1/2 inch of hinge wood. Do 90 precent of the trees need to be cabled? Or can you use wedges or maby nothin at all. A good way to tell is when you are makin the 1st cut in the notch side, watch the top of the tree. More times than not you can catch them swaying the slightest amount in the direction of natural lay. And if you have an eye enough to catch it you can usially still use some preventative teqniques to help her down. Because that does seem a bit extream cabling so much.
Stumper
One Man Band
Most here (Arboristsite)set lines higher(2/3rds up), use rope, cut a more open face and only plunge cut and pop a strap if there is a heavy headlean. This doesn't mean that your technique has no merit but there are reasons why those differences are our normal method.
High ties provide more leverage and ensure that a tree won't go backward byjumping the stump and rotating around the center of mass.
Rope absorbs shock better than cable and stores energy when pretensioned allowing an anchored line to "take up" a bit. It is also easier to get into the top of the tree.
AN open face allows the tree to fall further before the faces close and rupture remaining hinge fibers .(depending upon species the hinge may break even with a wide face or may stay on the stump but an open face will prolong the hinge's control)
Plunging and then severing the strap serves to prevent barberchairing.(You are using a good, safe technique) Most trees that don't have a heavy load in the fall direction aren't big barberchair risks. Cutting from outside in to the hinge allows one to leave a thicker hinge that just barely allows the tree to begin moving and gives a slower softer fall. Maybe better, maybe not depending upon the situation.
High ties provide more leverage and ensure that a tree won't go backward byjumping the stump and rotating around the center of mass.
Rope absorbs shock better than cable and stores energy when pretensioned allowing an anchored line to "take up" a bit. It is also easier to get into the top of the tree.
AN open face allows the tree to fall further before the faces close and rupture remaining hinge fibers .(depending upon species the hinge may break even with a wide face or may stay on the stump but an open face will prolong the hinge's control)
Plunging and then severing the strap serves to prevent barberchairing.(You are using a good, safe technique) Most trees that don't have a heavy load in the fall direction aren't big barberchair risks. Cutting from outside in to the hinge allows one to leave a thicker hinge that just barely allows the tree to begin moving and gives a slower softer fall. Maybe better, maybe not depending upon the situation.
1953greg
ArboristSite Guru
again thanks much,
maybe only 80% but it seems that 4 of 5 are always leaning or loaded at least 90* to the only area available to fall. amazing how the tree always beats the odds isnt it? im not a climber so i cant take them down from the top. bout 30-35' up is as hi as i can get a loaded string (with slack) thrown from between my knees, attached to rope, attached to 1/4" cable. can/how do you get it any higher from the ground? anyhow, with a come-a-long on the cable i get adequate pull. maybe i leave too much hinge, but they keep falling anyhow. i use wedges less than i used to. i guess i just need more "insurance" as i get older (52). sometimes i will cut the hinge down to 2-3" after the strap has been cut, but never more.
a stright tree in the wide open is a lay-up (basketball term). if one cant hit those they wont be on the team. u know what i mean?
thanks stumper and kid
i really appreciate the comments 1953greg
maybe only 80% but it seems that 4 of 5 are always leaning or loaded at least 90* to the only area available to fall. amazing how the tree always beats the odds isnt it? im not a climber so i cant take them down from the top. bout 30-35' up is as hi as i can get a loaded string (with slack) thrown from between my knees, attached to rope, attached to 1/4" cable. can/how do you get it any higher from the ground? anyhow, with a come-a-long on the cable i get adequate pull. maybe i leave too much hinge, but they keep falling anyhow. i use wedges less than i used to. i guess i just need more "insurance" as i get older (52). sometimes i will cut the hinge down to 2-3" after the strap has been cut, but never more.
a stright tree in the wide open is a lay-up (basketball term). if one cant hit those they wont be on the team. u know what i mean?
thanks stumper and kid
i really appreciate the comments 1953greg
Stumper
One Man Band
Greg, With a throwbag and line setting at 50-60 feet is reasonable. With a Big Shot sets at over 100 feet are reasonable.
BIG SHOT Standard Kit/ with two 4 foot poles
Your Price Availability Currently in Your Cart
109.00 In Stock
The BIG SHOT System Prior to Big Shot, distant line deliveries required an expensive CO2 or powder charged gun with its specifically designed projectile. The problem with guns is that if the target is less than a great distance away, the user runs the risk of grossly overfiring or worse. Using a manpowered throwbag is indeed simple, but often inaccurate and always requires a lot of practice to master. Big Shot can easily outdistance a hand thrown projectile, and can handle a larger variety of projectiles than a line gun. The Big Shot is unique in its soft touch ability to accurately place a line less than a great distance away. Its ability to fire a wide range of materials without the use of gun powder, pressurized and expensive cartridges, special permits or other expense helps create an experienced user faster. Now, using the Bow Hunter reel with a light line you can reach 150 vertical feet with ease while 200 feet is not unusual with limited practice. The Big Shot head is designed to fit into the metal, female end of an 8 foot, heavy-duty, fiberglass pruner extension pole and nothing else. The complete Big Shot system sets up in only seconds and weighs less than 10 pounds. No other method of line delivery requires so little equipment and expense to do so much!
Big Shot with two 4' poles.
I couldn't get a link to work so I copied a description. Click on the Sherril logo/link at the top of the page and search their site for Big Shot-includes pictures.
BIG SHOT Standard Kit/ with two 4 foot poles
Your Price Availability Currently in Your Cart
109.00 In Stock
The BIG SHOT System Prior to Big Shot, distant line deliveries required an expensive CO2 or powder charged gun with its specifically designed projectile. The problem with guns is that if the target is less than a great distance away, the user runs the risk of grossly overfiring or worse. Using a manpowered throwbag is indeed simple, but often inaccurate and always requires a lot of practice to master. Big Shot can easily outdistance a hand thrown projectile, and can handle a larger variety of projectiles than a line gun. The Big Shot is unique in its soft touch ability to accurately place a line less than a great distance away. Its ability to fire a wide range of materials without the use of gun powder, pressurized and expensive cartridges, special permits or other expense helps create an experienced user faster. Now, using the Bow Hunter reel with a light line you can reach 150 vertical feet with ease while 200 feet is not unusual with limited practice. The Big Shot head is designed to fit into the metal, female end of an 8 foot, heavy-duty, fiberglass pruner extension pole and nothing else. The complete Big Shot system sets up in only seconds and weighs less than 10 pounds. No other method of line delivery requires so little equipment and expense to do so much!
Big Shot with two 4' poles.
I couldn't get a link to work so I copied a description. Click on the Sherril logo/link at the top of the page and search their site for Big Shot-includes pictures.
Lumberjack
Banned
+1 for the Big Shot
Its one of the first things anyone should buy, feller or climber.
Its one of the first things anyone should buy, feller or climber.
Dan R Porter
ArboristSite Member
Just wanted to open this thread again. I will have stump pics soon
Fireaxman
ArboristSite Guru
I'm with ya. I've seen some pretty cute ones lately myself, comming in behind some of the FEMA crews. I'll try to get back into Tchefuncte and Old River Landing and get some picts before the stump grinders get there.
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