hired my first Guatamalans yesterday

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I became a horrible employee, and I was in charge of 30+ people. I'd show up late on purpose. I'd leave early. I'd assign assistants jobs I'd normally do, and then not check on their progress or completion. My boss and I fought each other through a downward spiral which ended with me being fired. Thank god....I'd worked hard to make him fire me, and I'd almost given up the week before and quit. Sure, I cut off my own nose to spite my face. I'd worked my butt off to help improve on a good operation, and my efforts were not shown any rewards or respect. So why should I continue to put as much profit as possible in my "bosses" pocket?

Ddh-i agree with everything you said but this paragraph right here. Why become a bad employee instead of just quiting? Around here, the tree community is rather small-if you are a bad employee for one outfit, every other outfit in the county will know about it and won't hire you. Personally, i'd much rather have my work record show that i quit rather than i got fired. Acting like a bad employee can hurt your reputation. Just my $.02.
 
Ddh-i agree with everything you said but this paragraph right here. Why become a bad employee instead of just quiting? Around here, the tree community is rather small-if you are a bad employee for one outfit, every other outfit in the county will know about it and won't hire you. Personally, i'd much rather have my work record show that i quit rather than i got fired. Acting like a bad employee can hurt your reputation. Just my $.02.
The way I interpreted that paragraph was that he wanted to bring the boss as far down with him as he could before he quit. And probably because he was still getting paid. I could be wrong and he's the only one with the real answer.

Evan
 
The truth is on the the net , on this forum, anywhere you cant really see the people or the problems you just never know who actually is or isnt what they say. I have had talks with employees in the past who told me how great there are and they should be making huge money. Have you ever noticed those same people never make what they think they should. Is it because of a greedy boss? Maybe but more times than not its because they have no clue how little they contribute to anyones profit. Some people have a problem on the job and fix it, others (most around here ) couldn't be happier ,its a reason to sit around and wait for it to be fixed by someone else. The guy climbing the ladder is usually doing it because he's busting his hump day in day out. He gets a raise because he's doing more than he's paid for. Can anyone do the math on that equation? Then you have the guy who's trying really hard and his fellow employees cant tell him enough what a brown noser he is. I shouldn't even be responding to this , its just preaching to the choir. The lazy whiners will never be anything but that . I know Ti comes off as rude but I see so much truth in what he says. Take a man thats had to work to EAT ,which by the way you cant starve in the USA, other countries you can starve and thats why they know what honest work is about. Around here there are more people trying to get on disability than are working it seems . Some need it some need shot. I have seen great tree crews out working, but not in my area. Most here fit the description TI has given . If you don't fit it then I wouldn't be offended.
 
Ddh-i agree with everything you said but this paragraph right here. Why become a bad employee instead of just quiting? Around here, the tree community is rather small-if you are a bad employee for one outfit, every other outfit in the county will know about it and won't hire you. Personally, i'd much rather have my work record show that i quit rather than i got fired. Acting like a bad employee can hurt your reputation. Just my $.02.

The way I interpreted that paragraph was that he wanted to bring the boss as far down with him as he could before he quit. And probably because he was still getting paid. I could be wrong and he's the only one with the real answer.

Evan

Beowulf, you're right that the best way to handle that situation honorably is simply to leave.

The last year I spent there I grew more and more disgusted with my bosses actions, and with how I and my crew were treated. I'd decided that when I left there, by whatever means, that I'd be leaving that line of work for something new. I knew how my boss felt about paying unemployment, and I really really wanted it to stick in his craw. Plus I wanted time with pay to decide and find what I wanted to do next. We both knew we'd entered a battle of the wills, and that it was very unlikely that we'd ever see eye to eye again. He wanted me to quit. I wanted him to fire me. Neither of us wanted to let the other one win, but ultimately he was the only one with something to lose.

When I got fired it was a huge relief. I'd won the battle of the wills, and as soon as I filed for unemployment, he challenged it. I was prepared, and won the challenge. I took a six month vacation basically, and shortly after that was over, I hired in as a line clearance trimmer apprentice.

That was the only time in my life I've ever drawn unemployment. I'd spent the previous three years being the best employee the company had ever had to that point. It was wrong of me, but I really wanted my boss to understand why what had once been a very good, effective working relationship had gone south. The only way possible to get that point across was by costing him money. I told him to his face numerous times that I disagreed with what he was doing, and that I wouldn't follow along blindly, despite the fact that he was the boss.

I guess it was having him as a good boss, and watching him transform into a greedy, powerloving, jackass as he took the reins that motivated me to not just quit and move on.
 
The truth is on the the net , on this forum, anywhere you cant really see the people or the problems you just never know who actually is or isnt what they say. I have had talks with employees in the past who told me how great there are and they should be making huge money. Have you ever noticed those same people never make what they think they should. Is it because of a greedy boss? Maybe but more times than not its because they have no clue how little they contribute to anyones profit. Some people have a problem on the job and fix it, others (most around here ) couldn't be happier ,its a reason to sit around and wait for it to be fixed by someone else. The guy climbing the ladder is usually doing it because he's busting his hump day in day out. He gets a raise because he's doing more than he's paid for. Can anyone do the math on that equation? Then you have the guy who's trying really hard and his fellow employees cant tell him enough what a brown noser he is. I shouldn't even be responding to this , its just preaching to the choir. The lazy whiners will never be anything but that . I know Ti comes off as rude but I see so much truth in what he says. Take a man thats had to work to EAT ,which by the way you cant starve in the USA, other countries you can starve and thats why they know what honest work is about. Around here there are more people trying to get on disability than are working it seems . Some need it some need shot. I have seen great tree crews out working, but not in my area. Most here fit the description TI has given . If you don't fit it then I wouldn't be offended.


Does not offend me a bit.

Anyone posting on this thread in agreement with treeminator is obviously in the same shape as him.

They don't have the skills and knowledge to find good people to hire, and then to train them to be good employees. Its much easier for them to generalize this group or that group as bad employees than it is to recognize that they are bad bosses instead of good leaders.
 
Yes I was legal and double yes I had an awesome time in the land of the Beaver. I was and am very impressed with the Canadian people. They are without a doubt the friendliest people you would ever want to meet. Toronto is a huge huge city to a country boy like me, but I never felt like I was in a big city. It was more like a sprawling small town that never seemed to end. Never did figure out how to find my way around very good. I lived in Mississauga in an unfinished condo. There were 31 of us altogether. We were hired to remove the machinery from Arrowhead Metals and load it on trucks and rail cars for shipment elsewhere.
I guess it never dawned me till now that I too was an immigrant. Everybody just treated me so good and I felt so at home that it wasn't like I had left my native country. I went to the bars alot and as soon as they figured out that I was from the States I couldn't spend any money. They would crowd around me each insisting I try his brand of Canadian beer. They told me that I had never had real beer before -- they were right. It was all good - real good. I was up there for eight months and there was not an unpleasant moment in the entire experience.
Art

Come to McMurray and make some real coin! Please do not judge all of Canada by your experiences in Toronto where from I escaped a few months ago. As far as Canada goes, so much of it is like the US it is no wonder you felt like at home, after all Ohio is just across Lake Erie.
 
Well since you pointed a finger I'll make simple assumption, you're still and always have been (The Employee) probably always will be.
 
Well since you pointed a finger I'll make simple assumption, you're still and always have been (The Employee) probably always will be.


I've been licensed and insured as the co-owner of a residential tree service for a year and a half.

Got any more assumptions to show off your intelligence? Maybe you should form the "treeinnovator cheerleader/fan club", and do something worthwhile with your time.
 
I'm in basically the same labor market TI and BEdwards is in. And i totally agree. It is a total nightmare around here finding any 20's white males willing to out in the heat & occasional rain.I have 2 college students that have worked for me 1 for 4yrs the other for 2yrs.These 2 work for me in the summer and on weekends.These 2 are the greatest.I pay them well and they do there job and beyond.Now the end of august i will Dread because i will have to find help.I went thru 8 last yr between Sep-may.Always on the phone,Needing to leave early twice a week.Now the days it would rain and I let them clean the shop they made sure they were always there all day on those occasions.From Sep till end of may my wife has to work with me and Whomever to help us complete the jobs.Its ridiculous when a 37Yr old woman is out the busting her hump dragging brush while I'm in a tree and the "Help" Is leaned up against a tree on the phone.
And the other has left early for various reason.And she Will have to drive 1 of the trucks because most of my insurance Co wont approve to drive our trucks
For Bad driving record.The last one before my other 2 got out of school.Was Arguing with his girlfriend on the phone on the way home from a job and pulled right out in front of another vehicle while driving my P/U.And Totalled the other vehicle and Dang near totalled mine.2 Days before It rained the previous day.I told him it was to wet to pull into the yard we were scheduled to work in.So I told him Wash my pontoon boat get in clean and you can go home.
1 hr later my wife calls and he's already left.Needless to say i had to spend 4 hrs Redoing the job myself.And he was on salary btw 500.00 a week and a tank of Gas.Anything over 40 is 19.00 an hr.Plus we always provide Lunch and 2 snacks a day.That was just the last one the ones before were worse.So tell me what should i expect for 550.00 a week"Salary +Gas" And Free Lunch and snacks a week?
 
I'm in basically the same labor market TI and BEdwards is in. And i totally agree. It is a total nightmare around here finding any 20's white males willing to out in the heat & occasional rain.I have 2 college students that have worked for me 1 for 4yrs the other for 2yrs.These 2 work for me in the summer and on weekends.These 2 are the greatest.I pay them well and they do there job and beyond.Now the end of august i will Dread because i will have to find help.I went thru 8 last yr between Sep-may.Always on the phone,Needing to leave early twice a week.Now the days it would rain and I let them clean the shop they made sure they were always there all day on those occasions.From Sep till end of may my wife has to work with me and Whomever to help us complete the jobs.Its ridiculous when a 37Yr old woman is out the busting her hump dragging brush while I'm in a tree and the "Help" Is leaned up against a tree on the phone.
And the other has left early for various reason.And she Will have to drive 1 of the trucks because most of my insurance Co wont approve to drive our trucks
For Bad driving record.The last one before my other 2 got out of school.Was Arguing with his girlfriend on the phone on the way home from a job and pulled right out in front of another vehicle while driving my P/U.And Totalled the other vehicle and Dang near totalled mine.2 Days before It rained the previous day.I told him it was to wet to pull into the yard we were scheduled to work in.So I told him Wash my pontoon boat get in clean and you can go home.
1 hr later my wife calls and he's already left.Needless to say i had to spend 4 hrs Redoing the job myself.And he was on salary btw 500.00 a week and a tank of Gas.Anything over 40 is 19.00 an hr.Plus we always provide Lunch and 2 snacks a day.That was just the last one the ones before were worse.So tell me what should i expect for 550.00 a week"Salary +Gas" And Free Lunch and snacks a week?

AMEN !!!
but hey, according to the guys in this thread... it's not the workers, it's your bad leadership and management skills right...lol ?

just like your guys conveniently worked all day to clean up the shop during the rains. mine conveniently never get sick, always show up, and give their best effort each Sunday (which just happens to be pay day). again. must be something the management is doing wrong right Lakebound?
 
Anyone posting on this thread in agreement with treeminator is obviously in the same shape as him. They don't have the skills and knowledge to find good people to hire, and then to train them to be good employees. Its much easier for them to generalize this group or that group as bad employees than it is to recognize that they are bad bosses instead of good leaders.

you see this DDM? according to ddhLakebound, it's all your fault and has nothing to do with the workers. it's all an illusion in our minds. you and i suck as bosses i guess :dizzy:
 
Treeinnovator

You are dealing with a syndrome that has no cure. Give it up, you will never make your point.
The syndrome works like this; If you have a problem that I don't have then you are doing something wrong. That's it, I said it, and I will never change my mind. No matter how many times you explain it, it will always come out the same. I don't have your problem, so your problem does not exist, you are a liar, you are stupid, you are lazy, etc etc etc.
I understand perfectly what you are saying. It is not that you explained it wrong. You have made it abundantly clear what your dilemma is and believe me, I and others here can relate to it. As for the other others I don't believe they will ever get a foggy picture of what you are describing. They will blame you until hell freezes over.
This syndrome is not circumstance based it is a human phenomena. We are just as baffling to them as they are to us, if that is any consolation.
Let me give a brief example. At work we all share calculators to count money. I can add a column up and then add it again to double check, I get a different number. I complain about junk calculators having pop and coffee spilled on them causing sticking keys. Everybody else tells me that I am doing something wrong because they NEVER have ANY problems with ANY of the calculators. Without fail one of them will snatch the calculator away from me to show me how stupid and inept that I am. Of course you see the problem is entirely on my end. Oh if only I was as smart as they are I wouldn't have this problem. Sure enough they tally the column up and slide the calculator over to me thus proving that it works and that I am certainly stupid. I simply look at them and say now do it again and make it come up with the same number. Their response is to get up and walk away and say I don't add my numbers twice.
You either get it or you don't.
Art
 
Rah Rah Sis Boom Bah and another Amen!!! now I realy am done.
 
I'm in basically the same labor market TI and BEdwards is in. And i totally agree. It is a total nightmare around here finding any 20's white males willing to out in the heat & occasional rain.I have 2 college students that have worked for me 1 for 4yrs the other for 2yrs.These 2 work for me in the summer and on weekends.These 2 are the greatest.I pay them well and they do there job and beyond.Now the end of august i will Dread because i will have to find help.I went thru 8 last yr between Sep-may.Always on the phone,Needing to leave early twice a week.Now the days it would rain and I let them clean the shop they made sure they were always there all day on those occasions.From Sep till end of may my wife has to work with me and Whomever to help us complete the jobs.Its ridiculous when a 37Yr old woman is out the busting her hump dragging brush while I'm in a tree and the "Help" Is leaned up against a tree on the phone.
And the other has left early for various reason.And she Will have to drive 1 of the trucks because most of my insurance Co wont approve to drive our trucks
For Bad driving record.The last one before my other 2 got out of school.Was Arguing with his girlfriend on the phone on the way home from a job and pulled right out in front of another vehicle while driving my P/U.And Totalled the other vehicle and Dang near totalled mine.2 Days before It rained the previous day.I told him it was to wet to pull into the yard we were scheduled to work in.So I told him Wash my pontoon boat get in clean and you can go home.
1 hr later my wife calls and he's already left.Needless to say i had to spend 4 hrs Redoing the job myself.And he was on salary btw 500.00 a week and a tank of Gas.Anything over 40 is 19.00 an hr.Plus we always provide Lunch and 2 snacks a day.That was just the last one the ones before were worse.So tell me what should i expect for 550.00 a week"Salary +Gas" And Free Lunch and snacks a week?


It may be that the labor market is that much of a nightmare. But DDM, you've shown at least in part that it can be overcome, evidenced by your 2 and 4 year guys.

It may be that a change in the hiring/training process would help you to find a solid full timer or two for year round. How many people do you talk to or interview for each one you hire? How do you locate applicants?

Making your expectations known up front, then backing up what you say will improve workers output, and your bottom line. The cell phone issue seems to be a common issue in this thread. Want to solve it? Lead by example, first off, and don't use your cell phone for personal calls when the crew is working. If it's a business call, it cant be avoided, and there's nothing for the crew to complain about. If you don't use yours, they can't use theirs. Simply tell them up front that it isn't allowed. Then the first time you catch them using it, keep track of how long. When you get back to the yard that night, calmly explain to them that they knew they weren't allowed to use the phone, and they cost you x minutes on the job site. And that they need to make up that time now. Make up time needs a dirty job too. Stay with them, and supervise the whole time. Once is usually enough.

Breaks should be the same way. If you're working, they're working. You're the leader, you call the break. If they physically can't hang, you choose wether to shape em up or ship em out. If they're just lazy, and won't respect your rules, you don't need them anyway. Make your expectations known up front. Tell them, "if I'm working you better be working." When you catch them trying to test the boundaries, be calm, firm, and respectful, but let them know they gotta meet expectations if they want to work for you.

When it comes to starting pay DDM, a few changes could save you money, and have the positive effect of making new hires feel like they are developing and deserving of more. Don't start them on salary, but give them the same hourly rate 13.75 = 550. (Then when they run off without cleaning the boat right, it costs them money. You offered the hours, and they went home. No pay for that.) Give them a goal to hit, like 95-98% on time attendance for a month or two to get moved to salary. They're more motivated to show up for work, because they have a goal to work for plus a paycheck. Tell them as soon as they've learned how to do all the daily and weekly maintenance on the equipment (correctly) you'll throw in a tank of gas every week. (And explain to them that it's equal to a $3000 raise, and you'll give them a $3k raise because proper maintenance will save you more than that.) Once these goals are attained, they've learned good habits, and are on the way to being the employee you need.

You're paying good money, and you deserve good help. It takes a lot of time and work to find and mold great workers, but it's worth it. If your crew is always learning to be better, and being told "Hey, thanks for all your hard work today." (when they deserve it), you can develop effective loyal help. It is not easy though. Honest communication is a big part, both with praise, and when you need to correct improper attitude or technique. And sometimes you just have to cut your losses, and say "You're fired".

Footnote: I know that finding people physically and mentally capable of the demands of the job, and being in the elements makes finding crew for treework more difficult than most other jobs. It's still necessary to maintain a positive attitude in order to be sucessful.
 
It may be that the labor market is that much of a nightmare. But DDM, you've shown at least in part that it can be overcome, evidenced by your 2 and 4 year guys.

It may be that a change in the hiring/training process would help you to find a solid full timer or two for year round. How many people do you talk to or interview for each one you hire? How do you locate applicants?

That was what i was trying to say.For the work we do unless there trying to better themselves I.E. going to college Seems like most of the younger people around here do not want to work outside dragging brush. I have yet to have one understand the concept that when feeding large wood thru the chipper to stop it as the engine bogs to let it rev back up until its been explained 15 times. That was an example.None of them want to drag brush they all want to start off running the bobcat.I'm probably not explaining myself very well here.They would all Rather be working in an air conditioned Plant I guess am what im trying to say.
And o yeah the salary thing will be earned from now on.No more freebies.
I usually get applicants From friends larger business's kinda like a labor pool Deal. But there views and mine a virtually the same with the same experiences. 1 of them the owns a rather large grading business will only hire
lets say folks from south of the border now.His labor problems are virtually non existent anymore.
 
That was what i was trying to say.For the work we do unless there trying to better themselves I.E. going to college Seems like most of the younger people around here do not want to work outside dragging brush. I have yet to have one understand the concept that when feeding large wood thru the chipper to stop it as the engine bogs to let it rev back up until its been explained 15 times. That was an example.None of them want to drag brush they all want to start off running the bobcat.I'm probably not explaining myself very well here.They would all Rather be working in an air conditioned Plant I guess am what im trying to say.
And o yeah the salary thing will be earned from now on.No more freebies.
I usually get applicants From friends larger business's kinda like a labor pool Deal. But there views and mine a virtually the same with the same experiences. 1 of them the owns a rather large grading business will only hire
lets say folks from south of the border now.His labor problems are virtually non existent anymore.

the best solution is to simply stop hiring white males and start hiring immigrants who know what the word "work" really means and respects your investment as the business owner.
 
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