How long to wait on steady work?

[jefflovstrom]

And last year the price of fuel! Dump fees and now the EPA.
Jeff

 

[treesquirrel]

Definately have to spend a lot, no question about it. Even if you buy used. By the time you have trucks, trailers, dump boxes, chip boxes, chippers, bucket trucks, stump grinders - if you do that, saws, rope and rigging gear.. and that is only the beginning.. Then comes insurance, taxes, employees, accountant fees, buildings, on and on..

I dumped well over $100K a quite a few years ago in the first 12 months, then another $60K in the next year or so.. and think it has been at least $30K every year since. (that is just equipment in the field) This year think it was around $50 or 60K.. and I have already purchased another $30K which I will pick up in January of 2010. So the pain never really stops.

And customers think you should show up with ALL that stuff and cut down their 30 inch oak for 200 bucks.

 

[southernoutdoor]

Well how about keeping it small, two man crew and just take on enough to keep ya busy? Dont try to compete with the big guys just do quality work at a reasonable price. Seems like that could be successful?????? I'm new so I may not have a clue, just seems like a good approach

 

[StewartTreeCare]

I know this is a major point of contention for some fellas here, so I will go ahead and just preface with "this is just my opinion"...

Direct selling. (aka door knocking) For any call you receive & get invited to bid on, force yourself to not go home until you make contact with 10 or so homeowners that live in the area that look like they could use some pruning, even if its just a hedge.

Sitting home waiting for your phone to ring can really bring down your moral. At least if you're out talking to people you are not focused on not having work.

Again, it's just my opinion that I know others are completely opposed to. But I also know I am sitting on a 3 week back log of 40 hour weeks & have only been running this outfit for a year.

Merry Christmas & good luck through the rough patch.

this here is the best post i read on this thread! he is right! study shows that direct marketing is the most effective way of getting jobs. one day a week i have my guys hand out flyers and i get a lot of work that way. you have to get people thinking. not everyone pays attention to their trees, they have more important things to do. hand them a tree service flyer and watch their necks break as they look up at all their trees. point the limbs out that are dead, warn them of potential hazards. if you really want to work you will, the work is there you just have to go get it because its not going to come to you. why should they call you over the next guy? DON'T GIVE THEM THE CHANCE TO CALL THE NEXT GUY!!!

 

[ArborSmithNw]

this here is the best post i read on this thread! he is right! study shows that direct marketing is the most effective way of getting jobs. one day a week i have my guys hand out flyers and i get a lot of work that way. you have to get people thinking. not everyone pays attention to their trees, they have more important things to do. hand them a tree service flyer and watch their necks break as they look up at all their trees. point the limbs out that are dead, warn them of potential hazards. if you really want to work you will, the work is there you just have to go get it because its not going to come to you. why should they call you over the next guy? DON'T GIVE THEM THE CHANCE TO CALL THE NEXT GUY!!!

Stewart NAILED IT.
Backlogs don't lie.
Size 10's kicked up on the desk worrying gets nothing accomplished.

 

[mckeetree]

this here is the best post i read on this thread!

Well that is sad. You may consider getting some counseling.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

Don't believe the hype in this thread about the mega-buck expenditures these guys supposedly make as far as it relates to the actual income they net after all of their bills are paid. Sure, you can go out and take on a bunch of debt and try to compete with the big guys in your city, sure. But you had better have a great legal department to handle the red tape you'll encounter going after municipal gigs, and you better employ, for big bucks, a former city/state/county big wig who can get you into the sweetheart contracts your competitors have sewn up, way ahead of you. There are big talkers in here who tell you about their huge investments in their businesses and their six figure salaries. What they don't tell you about is their bankruptcies and how they live on negative cash flow for the sake of appearances. Unless you are already independently wealthy and can actually take on the big names in this business, keep it fairly small and you will be OK if the economy actually does turn around. In my business life, I most often did not buy what I couldn't pay for, outright, and I amassed a net worth that others, with their huge debt load, can only dream of. I don't live large and I only owe taxes at year's end. When other tree companies, other than the big two, are working in town, I work. Right now things are pretty terrible, and if the economy doesn't turn around, they may stay that way. I do really enjoy tree work and I do a great job, but the realities of the opportunities to do it, or lack thereof, will ultimately dictate whether or not I'm still in the tree game six months from now. If I had bucket trucks, chippers, stump grinders and spray rigs sitting in my yard, business would be just as dead as it is now, but I would be over my head in debt. Think long and hard about that before you rush out to your bank to take on that new $100K loan.

FWIW, go ahead and knock on doors, hang flyers, place ads in the paper, yellow pages, etc. If the work is not there, it's not there. The guy who talked about marketing, as opposed to advertising, is simply practicing obfuscation, as advertising is, obviously, intimately associated with marketing. Again, in the end, you can market your company until you're blue in the face and your cash is gone. As I said, if the work is not there, it's not there.

 

[danieltree]

I ask myself this every year during the winter, and I always decide to stick it out. I sometimes have a hard time considering myself a company.I carry all the insurance (which next to labor is my biggest expense)have my own equipment , isa cert. and am licensed for my state. I only manage to get a little work though and 90 percent of my own work is referral. Every year it gets a little better. I climb for other companies to keep myself busy and also keep my ground man busy, if I did not do this I would not be able to make it. I also sub the jobs that are small but still need a skilled person to do , you know the jobs that cost as much in labor as the job was sold for(I do the job for half the money and still make money) I tried to work a large crew and realized that all I was doing was wasting good paying jobs on labor. So I guess what I am getting at is that the only way that I manage to make it is to stay small and keep my expenses down. I also seem to handle the winter slow down better If I come up with a project to do around the house to focus on. Oh yeah save up enough cash to make it through the winter if you can that helps a lot .​

 

[Saw Dust Smoken]

work or time off

Daniel is right! Keep back enough money to not have to work in slow times. If I dont turn a wheel for 2-3months in the winter? No problem! Big company cant do this with debt and employee headaches!!

 

[TreeClimber57]

Don't believe the hype in this thread about the mega-buck expenditures these guys supposedly make as far as it relates to the actual income they net after all of their bills are paid. Sure, you can go out and take on a bunch of debt and try to compete with the big guys in your city, sure. .

I did not have what I consider mega-buck expenditures myself. However I did drop a few dollars, as stated however I was fortunate in that I had enough cash from a previous job where the initial amount I dropped was in my back pocket with enough additional to live for 2 years without taking anything back. This then allowed me to push the full returns back into the company (other than some money I gave my two sons who worked with me the first two years).

Even after all of that, we still do not go after the big municipal jobs. Almost all my work is around the lake (Georgian Bay), and residential. I have thought about pushing into the bigger jobs, but so far have not done so. I just purcased a new skid-steer (bobcat), stump grinder (Vermeer), a mower for the lawn side (eXmark Navigator) and a 5 ton dump trailer.

It does cost money.. do I need to do it.. likely not, but I am having fun and have enough spare cash in company to do so.

Do I want the big jobs, no.. I had 9 employees in summer (half of them summer students), I am trying to add a couple more in 2010, but that will be it.

But even at that it took five years to get to where I wanted to be for work, and that was with enough cash up front to buy enough (used) equipment to get started.

 

[TreeClimber57]

Well how about keeping it small, two man crew and just take on enough to keep ya busy? Dont try to compete with the big guys just do quality work at a reasonable price. Seems like that could be successful?????? I'm new so I may not have a clue, just seems like a good approach

It is the best approach. I only grew a bit bigger initially as I took on mowing of lawns as well, for my son initially - gave him summer employment while at school.

 

[TreeClimber57]

not sure what you mean but MARKETING is ADVERTISING. I spend about 50k a year in just marketing/advertising and its the single most important beginning step in running any business, not just tree care. SELL SELL SELL. how do you get sales? you put your company in their face. then you need the staff to handle the calls.

Good advise. And if I had known what I know now when I started, I may have been able to get up to speed faster. I didn't spend $50K in marketing.. the first year I don't think I spent more than maybe $5K, and the 2nd year no better.

Even now I don't spend $50K -- but you do need to spend on marketing to get new customers. I have a lot of post-cards going out, and a lot of flyers. Some of it is a bit duplicated however, as some is focused on lawn work and some on tree work. Most of the lawn marketing now has some tree side added in, as there are a lot more potential long term lawn customers. (and we try to grab them for any tree work)

Maybe I should spend more.. I just had a set of flyers go to print. The big cost here though is the postage.

 

[RVALUE]

Don't overlook the fact that in a dynamic environment, (constantly changing), tree work is viewed as more of a luxury as the economy falls. This in turn passes the cost on to the very insurance companies that harass you into a category that elevates the problem (of being viewed as a luxury.)

((Provided you pass on the overhead costs to the customer))

This is an unfortuneate situation to overcome. One more obstacle.

The result of this can be seen now as "seasoned" players in the business are now out or nearly out of work.

BUT the good news is, there is a challenge to get that tree on the ground faster than you think you can.

 

[RVALUE]

Some suscribe to the concept that if you glean a bit of good information from a thread, it is worthy of REP.




:greenchainsaw:

 

[RVALUE]

Good advise. And if I had known what I know now when I started, I may have been able to get up to speed faster. I didn't spend $50K in marketing.. the first year I don't think I spent more than maybe $5K, and the 2nd year no better.

Even now I don't spend $50K -- but you do need to spend on marketing to get new customers. I have a lot of post-cards going out, and a lot of flyers. Some of it is a bit duplicated however, as some is focused on lawn work and some on tree work. Most of the lawn marketing now has some tree side added in, as there are a lot more potential long term lawn customers. (and we try to grab them for any tree work)

Maybe I should spend more.. I just had a set of flyers go to print. The big cost here though is the postage.

The mysterious "effective Marketing"

 

[Sunrise Guy]

(snip) I also seem to handle the winter slow down better If I come up with a project to do around the house to focus on. Oh yeah save up enough cash to make it through the winter if you can that helps a lot .​

Excellent point about the project around the house. This current slow-down has threatened to drive me into a real depression, but I have forced myself to keep busy around my house, and that seems to keep the blues away. I also have been updating my client mailing list using a new program, and just doing the data entry and seeing how many folks I've worked for over the years gives me hope that with the new features on this new program I will soon be stacking up the work for the new year.

 

[mckeetree]

In my business life, I most often did not buy what I couldn't pay for, outright, and I amassed a net worth that others, with their huge debt load, can only dream of. If I had bucket trucks, chippers, stump grinders and spray rigs sitting in my yard...........

That's great, but you have to realize that will not work for most people in this business. Don't get folks to dreaming they can get anywhere in this business without any equipment. It worked for you but I would call that an isolated case. Real isolated. There is one guy on here now that is already getting that "what if you just get out there with nothing and do good work deal going." Well, maybe, but usually that works out to be a long drawn out fiasco. I am not saying debt is a good thing from every possible angle and I have seen slow times before but without my bucket trucks, chippers, stump grinders, and spray rig it would have been a real sad last 23 years.

 

[RVALUE]

In my business life, I most often did not buy what I couldn't pay for, outright, and I amassed a net worth that others, with their huge debt load, can only dream of. If I had bucket trucks, chippers, stump grinders and spray rigs sitting in my yard...........

That's great, but you have to realize that will not work for most people in this business. Don't get folks to dreaming they can get anywhere in this business without any equipment. It worked for you but I would call that an isolated case. Real isolated. There is one guy on here now that is already getting that "what if you just get out there with nothing and do good work deal going." Well, maybe, but usually that works out to be a long drawn out fiasco. I am not saying debt is a good thing from every possible angle and I have seen slow times before but without my bucket trucks, chippers, stump grinders, and spray rig it would have been a real sad last 23 years.

Well put

Is the spray rig an insect a cider?

 

[TreeClimber57]

That's great, but you have to realize that will not work for most people in this business. Don't get folks to dreaming they can get anywhere in this business without any equipment. It worked for you but I would call that an isolated case. Real isolated. There is one guy on here now that is already getting that "what if you just get out there with nothing and do good work deal going." Well, maybe, but usually that works out to be a long drawn out fiasco. I am not saying debt is a good thing from every possible angle and I have seen slow times before but without my bucket trucks, chippers, stump grinders, and spray rig it would have been a real sad last 23 years.

Good advise. And frankly if I knew a few years ago what I know now, I would do a lot differently. Yes I had cash up front.. but even at that I made a whole lot of mistakes, and a lot of equipment sat idle for a lot of hours initially. Thank God it was paid for.

Best advise.. start small, with what you can afford. Focus on what you know and grow from there.

I am not trying to suggest that you need to fill a yard full of equipment or a shed full of saws.. and if you do make sure it is paid for.

I do suggest you start with what you know, knock on doors, use your contacts and friends to start a network, and go from there. Oh.. if you are buying anything at all, buy used if you can - make sure in good shape but used. I still buy most stuff used today - there is a lot of good used equipment out there.

 

[StewartTreeCare]

Well that is sad. You may consider getting some counseling.

get counseling mckeetree? ok yeah lets sit and listen to everyone bash the idea of doing tree work for yourself. all i heard up until this point is stories about giving up and taking a better job. you have to spend money to make money and invest a little time. if you fail whos fault is that? the tree company down the street? NO IT IS YOU FAULT!!!!! I think you need to get counseling. help this guy through his slump instead of trying to persuade him and scare him into giving up! get with the program man. sure there will be stories of failure but for every story of failure there is a story of success. here is a formula for you to think about ok HARD WORK= SUCCESS. Encourage this man, give him hope and don't come at me like that because I am trying to help this guy out! im sure you had someone helping you out or picking you up when you were down. i dont even have anything else to say to you man, merry christmas.