How many new saws?

[Greystoke]

I was on those too, but just takin tylenol now...I try to avoid the strong ones ifn I can.

 

[Sport Faller]

Are you savin em for the GTG to share :msp_biggrin:

 

[Greystoke]

No way! Do you know the pain I had to go through to get mine? :msp_smile:

 

[OlympicYJ]

Been logging and doing firewood for right about 20 years.

For myself, not counting "partners" who I shed in due course, I have had 5 saws, one I rebuilt after it seized. 2 got crushed beyond repair, or I'd still be running them. 1 got traded in towards the 357XP.

I don't understand why a man would need a new saw every 8 months. It has to be pure negligence, because I have cut a lot of timber and firewood in 20 years. And I do about zero maintenance on them myself- just drop them off when something lets go....I leave them out in the rain, sun, snow...no love beyond being careful and not abusing it when using it.

I'm not getting the fast turn around either. I had a 441, 260 and 660's that I "had" for 4-7 years before they were stolen and some had never had a carb kit in them. For most of their lives they ate 100LL AV gas and Amsoil Saber oil and they were all ported, no stock saws. I had bent some hands and broken some plastic here and there, but never did I sell one due to the fact that a new one was better or started better.

I have cut with other "loggers" or for other loggers and I find its pretty much just shear abuse that kills them, requiring the shorter lifespan. I sure don't baby mine, but I don't throw them around either, and I think I can handle one in the cut pretty good so they aren't always getting the guts dawged out of them. Some people can cut trees down, but really don't have very good saw handling skills and the saw takes the brunt of the force instead of seeing it about to happen and feathering the trigger or something, who knows. I get longer life out of most anything though, where as, I know others that could damage an anvil, there is a wide range of operators in between.

Sam

Ok so you guys are loggers back east we have em out west. There are DIFFERENCES between the two. So instead of taking years of falling or just a generalized statement. Not meant to disrespect anyone. Oldtimer and Slamm you guys say you haven't gone through many saws. I believe you and that you aren't abusing them. Lots of West coast fallers go through a saw a year as stated by some on here. It's not because it was abused but because they were wore out, or nearly so, and got a newer saw to stay reliable and therefore not waste anytime.

Instead of talking in relative terms, how bout we throw a little science in here. I'm asking for a comparison. Not to start a pissing match but to get this West Coast vs East Coast crap sorted out. So back to the comparison. I would like to hear how much timber you cut a year wether it be in mbf, cord, or acres and we'll compare the two.

The reason I want to do a comparison is to be more scientific than someones relative "alot." Time in years is not important. It's the amount of time that has been put on the piece of equipment. Yes service and abuse are key to over-all life of a piece of equipment. Taking an estimate of how many hours you run your saw a day and extrapolating it out to a full work year is a little too in-exact so thats my reasoning behind some sort of more accurately counted number.

 

[carguy]

Ok so you guys are loggers back east we have em out west. There are DIFFERENCES between the two. So instead of taking years of falling or just a generalized statement. Not meant to disrespect anyone. Oldtimer and Slamm you guys say you haven't gone through many saws. I believe you and that you aren't abusing them. Lots of West coast fallers go through a saw a year as stated by some on here. It's not because it was abused but because they were wore out, or nearly so, and got a newer saw to stay reliable and therefore not waste anytime.

Instead of talking in relative terms, how bout we throw a little science in here. I'm asking for a comparison. Not to start a pissing match but to get this West Coast vs East Coast crap sorted out. So back to the comparison. I would like to hear how much timber you cut a year wether it be in mbf, cord, or acres and we'll compare the two.

The reason I want to do a comparison is to be more scientific than someones relative "alot." Time in years is not important. It's the amount of time that has been put on the piece of equipment. Yes service and abuse are key to over-all life of a piece of equipment. Taking an estimate of how many hours you run your saw a day and extrapolating it out to a full work year is a little too in-exact so thats my reasoning behind some sort of more accurately counted number.

This is a good idea, however several factors should be taken in to account. I believe that the number of hours of use, the number of gallons of fuel used, and if possible an estimate of the total area of all the kurfs. These three criteria would help to filter out diameter and hieght differences between the East and West coast trees. Granted there is a difference in the makeup of trees between the coasts but there would at least be something measurable.

 

[RandyMac]

Most of my experience doesn't apply, anymore, the world moved on.
However, a year's use is about right. My McCullochs needed a hone job and rings or rebore and piston after a season. Those 20 minute bucking cuts add up fast toward operating hours.
The old all metal chainsaws were different, you might get 3-4 years out of it before things got too loose.
West coast forests have far more trees per acre, second growth aka "doghair" means the saw is subjected to sustained full power use. I remember what the second growth Redwoods did to my PM850 in just three months time. I might have cut 50 36" trees, but didn't get 100 feet from the day's first stump. A year in that stuff is equal to two years select cutting in the Sierras.

 

[redprospector]

Sam, & oldtimer,

It's not always about wearing out, or tearing up a saw. Heck, I've still got a 288xp I bought in 89. It's still good enough that it could last most folks on this site the rest of their lives.
I have worn out some saws, and they might have made it for several years if I wanted to keep rebuilding them. Any saw that gives me much problem is replaced, muy pronto.
The main reason for the rotation of saws (at least for me) is this thing the gubment invented....A tax deduction. I can give it to my dealer, or I can give it to Uncle Sam. I like my dealer, not so much Uncle Sam. So I buy new saws.

Andy

 

[Gologit]

Sam, & oldtimer,

It's not always about wearing out, or tearing up a saw. Heck, I've still got a 288xp I bought in 89. It's still good enough that it could last most folks on this site the rest of their lives.
I have worn out some saws, and they might have made it for several years if I wanted to keep rebuilding them. Any saw that gives me much problem is replaced, muy pronto.
The main reason for the rotation of saws (at least for me) is this thing the gubment invented....A tax deduction. I can give it to my dealer, or I can give it to Uncle Sam. I like my dealer, not so much Uncle Sam. So I buy new saws.

Andy

Yup, The depreciation schedule is our friend.

 

[Jacob J.]

Out here in the west, straight falling jobs are the killer of saws these days. Try dumping 350-550 stems a day straight down the hill with a stem diameter average
of around 14". That will flat wear a saw out in a year easily. I worked a straight falling job on Seneca ground that was 4.25 million board feet in just over five months
with four guys cutting full time.

 

[hammerlogging]

Mountain hardwood timber. about 2.3 mmbf/yr. plus about 150 loads of pulpwood. In about 175 work days /year, realistically. Avg bdft/tree, maybe 200. bdft per acre? anywhere from 3 mbf to 10 plus. About a saw year, any longer and I'm millking it too much, and I go into Jacob J's rotation, and the third gets sold off to a logger or whoever. And I agree, these "wore out" saws are hot #### to about anyone else but a faller, but not satisfactory for a full time faller. this is pretty rough, but close enough for discussion

I'd say the hardest thing ona saw is the guys running it like it has a sharp chain- I hate hearing a saw out there running hard with a dull chain. I do like the grinder, the most I ever run a chain is 6 tanks. I run usually 10 tanks through my 660 per day. With a lesser chain I bet that'd be 13 tanks and half the trees

 

[Slamm]

Midwest hardwood, cut, limb and top myself 1-2 million BF and some of the other cutters are in the same range. I don't care if others wear stuff out, most everything that I own lasts longer with me than with others.

I cut for at least solid 3 years with my first 660 and it still ran just as good the last tree as the first, then it was stolen here 7 years later, still ran great.

I cut with guys that go through a saw each year ........ I also see why they go through a saw each year. I can assure you they don't think they are harder on a piece of equipment than I am, but the difference is in the little things.

Sam

 

[056kid]

Well you are just extra special Slamm..

At the end of every day I look like I have been chilling in a tornado. my gear sees the same. . . I do work though. . . .

 

[redprospector]

Midwest hardwood, cut, limb and top myself 1-2 million BF and some of the other cutters are in the same range. I don't care if others wear stuff out, most everything that I own lasts longer with me than with others.

I cut for at least solid 3 years with my first 660 and it still ran just as good the last tree as the first, then it was stolen here 7 years later, still ran great.

I cut with guys that go through a saw each year ........ I also see why they go through a saw each year. I can assure you they don't think they are harder on a piece of equipment than I am, but the difference is in the little things.

Sam

Sam,
If you ran that 660 for 7 years, you missed out on 6 1200 to 1500 dollar tax deductions. I know a saw can last a long time, but I'd rather support my local dealer than the GSA.

Andy

 

[Gologit]

Sam,
If you ran that 660 for 7 years, you missed out on 6 1200 to 1500 dollar tax deductions. I know a saw can last a long time, but I'd rather support my local dealer than the GSA.

Andy

Yup.

 

[imagineero]

I got one of brads 660's off Matt who decided to go all husky and it came with a works connection tach zippy tied on the side of the wrap handle. It's tiny and super fast, which makes tuning super easy and lets you keep an eye on things. The addictive thing about it is that it's also an hour meter. You rack up a lot less machine hours in a full day than what you think, even if you only stop to fuel up and then keep going. I'd be surprised if anybody could rack up 4 hours of machine time on a saw in a day, unless they leave the saw idling all the time.

We lean seized one of my 044's a couple weeks ago. I knew it was running lean, but it was one of the backup 044's that doesnt see much trigger time. Every time I'd hear someone run it I'd remember it needed adjusting but I'd be up a tree and yell down to put it aside. Well, the inevitable happened, it got ran when I wasn't on site and seized her up real good. Prompted me to order a stack of tachs for all the saws. OEM P&C in aus for an 044 is $860. I went aftermarket for $140. Even at that price, a tach is worth having.

And don't give me that crap about tuning in the cut either.

Shaun

 

[Oldtimer]

I worked alone for 16+ years of the 20 or so I have been doing this. I had 2 saws most always, but favored one most of the time. I would have to dig out all my trucking slips and then try to put a number on all the cords of wood, then the tree work, and then the incidental stuff.....and remember too that limbing every single tree out must also be counted as feet cut...and every pushed over sapling that gets cut down, and brush that gets lopped...and every log bucked on the landing must be counted as feet cut...so yeah, many many millions of feet. Hell, I bet 50 million is a low number.
Also, I repair if possible.

This idea of buying new as a way to "save money" via a tax write-off is misleading. So you don't pay a tax- you still spent that money you worked damned hard for. I prefer to save it until I can buy something I don't already have that can make me money....and I need to show a sizable disposable income to get bank loans when the time is right..

 

[OlympicYJ]

This is a good idea, however several factors should be taken in to account. I believe that the number of hours of use, the number of gallons of fuel used, and if possible an estimate of the total area of all the kurfs. These three criteria would help to filter out diameter and hieght differences between the East and West coast trees. Granted there is a difference in the makeup of trees between the coasts but there would at least be something measurable.

Thats why I wanted mbf, or cord, or acres its much easier to quantify than actual hours and doing anything more would really just clutter up what the goal is. I do agree with you on your points though there are major differences between the coasts

Out here in the west, straight falling jobs are the killer of saws these days. Try dumping 350-550 stems a day straight down the hill with a stem diameter average
of around 14". That will flat wear a saw out in a year easily. I worked a straight falling job on Seneca ground that was 4.25 million board feet in just over five months
with four guys cutting full time.

Thanks Jacob. to put that in perspective each man there cut 1,062,500 bf in 5 months. Thats 212,500 bf a month. This is exactly what I'm looking for.

Mountain hardwood timber. about 2.3 mmbf/yr. plus about 150 loads of pulpwood. In about 175 work days /year, realistically. Avg bdft/tree, maybe 200. bdft per acre? anywhere from 3 mbf to 10 plus. About a saw year, any longer and I'm millking it too much, and I go into Jacob J's rotation, and the third gets sold off to a logger or whoever. And I agree, these "wore out" saws are hot #### to about anyone else but a faller, but not satisfactory for a full time faller. this is pretty rough, but close enough for discussion

I'd say the hardest thing ona saw is the guys running it like it has a sharp chain- I hate hearing a saw out there running hard with a dull chain. I do like the grinder, the most I ever run a chain is 6 tanks. I run usually 10 tanks through my 660 per day. With a lesser chain I bet that'd be 13 tanks and half the trees

So that is 2,300,000 bf a year and we haven't counted the pulp loads. That makes it 383,000 bf per month. How many mbf are in a load of pulp back there? And all of this is cut by a chainsaw not a processor correct?



Slamm you said 1-2 million bf per year. Ok well take your high number 2 million. That means you are cutting 166,666 bf per month.

I worked alone for 16+ years of the 20 or so I have been doing this. I had 2 saws most always, but favored one most of the time. I would have to dig out all my trucking slips and then try to put a number on all the cords of wood, then the tree work, and then the incidental stuff.....and remember too that limbing every single tree out must also be counted as feet cut...and every pushed over sapling that gets cut down, and brush that gets lopped...and every log bucked on the landing must be counted as feet cut...so yeah, many many millions of feet. Hell, I bet 50 million is a low number.
Also, I repair if possible.

This idea of buying new as a way to "save money" via a tax write-off is misleading. So you don't pay a tax- you still spent that money you worked damned hard for. I prefer to save it until I can buy something I don't already have that can make me money....and I need to show a sizable disposable income to get bank loans when the time is right..

You are still speaking in generalities and are not giving me anything that is scientifically accurate. Given that this is a scientific experiment which uses imperical data and you have only given me anecdotal data your response is nullified. In plain speak its just a bunch of crap that isn't worth anything.

Guys that wear a saw out each year cut 212,500 bf a month and 383,000 bf per month. Guy that doesn't 166,666 bf per month. So in a years time those that buy a new saw see twice as much action than those that don't. I think it's pretty easy to understand that saws that get more use are going to wear out faster.

 

[Gologit]

This idea of buying new as a way to "save money" via a tax write-off is misleading. So you don't pay a tax- you still spent that money you worked damned hard for. I prefer to save it until I can buy something I don't already have that can make me money....and I need to show a sizable disposable income to get bank loans when the time is right..

You might want to re-think that. Why not talk to a good tax accountant and see if they agree with you. Whatever you pay them, and it isn't much, you'll probably realize in savings on your tax liability.

It's not enough to be just a hard worker and a good logger anymore. Money management is key and things are so damn complicated that it's almost impossible to stay up with it.

So, get some advice and use it to help your business or just ignore everybody and muddle along like you have been. Your choice entirely.

 

[Oldtimer]

You might want to re-think that. Why not talk to a good tax accountant and see if they agree with you. Whatever you pay them, and it isn't much, you'll probably realize in savings on your tax liability.

It's not enough to be just a hard worker and a good logger anymore. Money management is key and things are so damn complicated that it's almost impossible to stay up with it.

So, get some advice and use it to help your business or just ignore everybody and muddle along like you have been. Your choice entirely.

I have a very good accountant, who handles several other logging contractors. She has saved me BIG time the last few years. I still don't see the sense in spending money for the sake of "saving" on income tax. I feel that in the long run, with a goal in mind, saving money is the smart thing to do. $790 on my new 576XP-AT is one thing, but I have seen guys buy $30K items for the sake of a "write-off". No sense in buying a $30K write-off if it doesn't actually make you money. I'd rather render unto Caesar and keep as much as I can in reserve. My CPA agrees.

 

[Oldtimer]

Thats why I wanted mbf, or cord, or acres its much easier to quantify than actual hours and doing anything more would really just clutter up what the goal is. I do agree with you on your points though there are major differences between the coasts



Thanks Jacob. to put that in perspective each man there cut 1,062,500 bf in 5 months. Thats 212,500 bf a month. This is exactly what I'm looking for.



So that is 2,300,000 bf a year and we haven't counted the pulp loads. That makes it 383,000 bf per month. How many mbf are in a load of pulp back there? And all of this is cut by a chainsaw not a processor correct?



Slamm you said 1-2 million bf per year. Ok well take your high number 2 million. That means you are cutting 166,666 bf per month.




You are still speaking in generalities and are not giving me anything that is scientifically accurate. Given that this is a scientific experiment which uses imperical data and you have only given me anecdotal data your response is nullified. In plain speak its just a bunch of crap that isn't worth anything.

Guys that wear a saw out each year cut 212,500 bf a month and 383,000 bf per month. Guy that doesn't 166,666 bf per month. So in a years time those that buy a new saw see twice as much action than those that don't. I think it's pretty easy to understand that saws that get more use are going to wear out faster.

I've cut plenty. I am not going to go spend 4 hours researching what I have cut the last 20 years.
Exclude me from this highly technical scentific endeavor.
Put plainly, wearing out a saw every 4 months is CRAP. Buying new when a re-ring is all you need is CRAP.
But who really cares? The end result of any deep thought comparison here in this forum ends with the west coast faller being able to walk on water and cure blindness with a touch.

News flash: Dumping trees all day is not logging.