Toddppm
Addicted to ArboristSite
8 year old trees????? Is that good enough?http://www.lawnandlandscape.com/news/news.asp?ID=4457
Hurricane proofing?
- Thread starter Toddppm
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frashdog
ArboristSite Operative
gotta love that science
LightningLoader
ArboristSite Operative
8 yr. old trees are probibly still much more flexible than say a 50 year old live oak, but I stil think that it really does make a huge difference if you've had your trees done just before hurricane season.
vharrison2
Member
Dr. Gilman knows trees! Thanks for the link.
Bermie
Addicted to ArboristSite
It does depend a lot on different factors.
For instance here in Bermuda on average, soil depth is about nine inches, under that is limestone bedrock. In coastal areas there is even less soil. introduced trees that have an upright growth habit fared terribly in our last major hurricane, Fabian (2003) up to 120mph winds for 12 hrs.
Self seeded and unpruned Casuarinas fell over like pick up sticks, ripping up rock and tumbling down cliffs, adding greatly to coastal erosion, those that had been subject to periodic reductions (near parks and public beaches) on the other hand stayed upright.
Trees with lower spreading statures by and large remained upright, albeit with broken branches and smashed crowns. There were exceptions of course, notably a massive ficus in the Botanical Gardens, it just peeled off the ground, soil depth there was probably in the order of four feet, but the root plate although wide was shallow, the size and density of the canopy was just too much. Also, almost nothing will withstand the mini tornadoes that rip through close to the eye wall.
Our native vegetation responds over time to wind sheer (strategy of flexibility) the root systems penetrate into the rock, the thickness of the forest binds together to provide mutual support and 'sheds' the wind over the top.
Introduced trees do not respond adequately to wind sheer and continue to grow in their upright habit, with no soil - over they go!!
There is also a study, by Mattheck I believe (stand to be corrected) that graphs root plate radius with stem diameter in determining whether trees will be windthrown. For instance a tree with a 40cm (R) stem radius should have a root plate radius (Rr) of 300cm to resist windthrow. A footnote to this is that the R:Rr ratio does depend on WHERE the roots are growing
For instance here in Bermuda on average, soil depth is about nine inches, under that is limestone bedrock. In coastal areas there is even less soil. introduced trees that have an upright growth habit fared terribly in our last major hurricane, Fabian (2003) up to 120mph winds for 12 hrs.
Self seeded and unpruned Casuarinas fell over like pick up sticks, ripping up rock and tumbling down cliffs, adding greatly to coastal erosion, those that had been subject to periodic reductions (near parks and public beaches) on the other hand stayed upright.
Trees with lower spreading statures by and large remained upright, albeit with broken branches and smashed crowns. There were exceptions of course, notably a massive ficus in the Botanical Gardens, it just peeled off the ground, soil depth there was probably in the order of four feet, but the root plate although wide was shallow, the size and density of the canopy was just too much. Also, almost nothing will withstand the mini tornadoes that rip through close to the eye wall.
Our native vegetation responds over time to wind sheer (strategy of flexibility) the root systems penetrate into the rock, the thickness of the forest binds together to provide mutual support and 'sheds' the wind over the top.
Introduced trees do not respond adequately to wind sheer and continue to grow in their upright habit, with no soil - over they go!!
There is also a study, by Mattheck I believe (stand to be corrected) that graphs root plate radius with stem diameter in determining whether trees will be windthrown. For instance a tree with a 40cm (R) stem radius should have a root plate radius (Rr) of 300cm to resist windthrow. A footnote to this is that the R:Rr ratio does depend on WHERE the roots are growing
clearance
Addicted to ArboristSite
Toddppm said:Interesting but I don't think he proved a damn thingJust giving ammunition to whack back trees, oh , Im sorry -Crown Reduce
[/QUOTE What is your problem, if the trees stay up, isnt that better than a buck and chip show the next day?
clearance
Addicted to ArboristSite
Listen up Todd parts per million, I work windfirming full time. That means climbing trees next to clearcuts in old growth, around creeks mostly, also areas with high windfall potential. We climb up the conifers, cut off a few branches and top them. This prevents them from blowing down, ok, its wrong to top trees, better to let them blow down into creeks, damaging fish habitat and smashing the understory (little trees) on the way down. What the hell do you want, an omellette? Ok, fine, just understand a few eggs have to get broken.Toddppm said:
xtremetrees
Addicted to ArboristSite
lol
OTG BOSTON
Addicted to ArboristSite
Toddppm said:Interesting but I don't think he proved a damn thing
You should, #1 read the article again and make sure you understand exactly what is being said or #2 See Gilman do his presentation of his research so you'll understand what is being said (with pictures) so you "get it".
If you are a world famous research Arborist with your own data then please share with the rest of us.
Toddppm
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yeah, I guess I'd pick #2.
Of course he didn't write that article and there's alot left out, guess I'll have to wait and see in the Journal.
But with that kind of budget I think there could have been more meaningful data collected from wiring up some mature trees in a regular setting. Not like there's been a shortage of hurricanes the last 8 years.
Who doesn't want to run a big ass fan that was specially built for you???
It's really artificial though when applying from 1 direction at a time and the wind speed can only be varied so much , so fast. And on 8 year old trees???
No sorry, I'm nobody. No data from a famous tree scientist just my observations and thoughts.
Of course he didn't write that article and there's alot left out, guess I'll have to wait and see in the Journal.
But with that kind of budget I think there could have been more meaningful data collected from wiring up some mature trees in a regular setting. Not like there's been a shortage of hurricanes the last 8 years.
Who doesn't want to run a big ass fan that was specially built for you???
It's really artificial though when applying from 1 direction at a time and the wind speed can only be varied so much , so fast. And on 8 year old trees???
No sorry, I'm nobody. No data from a famous tree scientist just my observations and thoughts.
i'd like to see data on how trees fare if the long/low horizontals are contacting another tree's branches full or part time; and if shortening those branches increases or decreases stability.
Also if the bend from a tree with raised canopy maid a sharper, more immediate bend than untrimmed. Like if you bent end of pole from just extreme end with one hand; or aided the bend in pole with other hand helping/placed halfway; to give more bend; but not as sharp a bend?
Also if the bend from a tree with raised canopy maid a sharper, more immediate bend than untrimmed. Like if you bent end of pole from just extreme end with one hand; or aided the bend in pole with other hand helping/placed halfway; to give more bend; but not as sharp a bend?
Of course he didn't write that article and there's alot left out, guess I'll have to wait and see in the Journal.
But with that kind of budget I think there could have been more meaningful data collected from wiring up some mature trees in a regular setting. Not like there's been a shortage of hurricanes the last 8 years.
Who doesn't want to run a big ass fan that was specially built for you???
It's really artificial though when applying from 1 direction at a time and the wind speed can only be varied so much , so fast. And on 8 year old trees???
************
Todd, in order for the data to be scientifically meaningful, the tests have to be on the same type of trees. older trees on different sites = more variables = useless data.
I think Dr. Ed's doing a very useful study. If you read his book you will know that crown Reduction does not = Whacking Back.
But with that kind of budget I think there could have been more meaningful data collected from wiring up some mature trees in a regular setting. Not like there's been a shortage of hurricanes the last 8 years.
Who doesn't want to run a big ass fan that was specially built for you???
It's really artificial though when applying from 1 direction at a time and the wind speed can only be varied so much , so fast. And on 8 year old trees???
************
Todd, in order for the data to be scientifically meaningful, the tests have to be on the same type of trees. older trees on different sites = more variables = useless data.
I think Dr. Ed's doing a very useful study. If you read his book you will know that crown Reduction does not = Whacking Back.
freemanruss
ArboristSite Lurker
That's very interesting. I was just down in Mississippi in the Gulfport/Biloxi area doing volunteer storm damaged tree removal from Dec thru April and if you drive along the coast, live oak are, in many areas the only trees to have survived Hurricane Katrina. The live oaks were damaged, of course, and many were windthrown, but in more cases than not, live oak were all that stood. They withstood category 5 winds and a thirty foot tidal surge. Maybe it is that they are better acclaimated to the wind due to previous exposure? Maybe they were "hurricane pruned" by Mother Nature in prevous seasons?
l2edneck
Small Job Specialist
just from what ive seen
ok if you prune the tree of course it will with stand better than a tree that hasnt been pruned. ie the wind can blow thru the tree instead of acting like a wall, but on the other hand you have to take water weakining the ground as well as location. buildings will change wind direction and also make winds turn into vortexes.i noticed that after the storms of 04 the damage to pruned trees was mostly broken limbs as to trees that hadnt been trimmed some just fell over taking lawn with them.i live in a very crowded place and is mostly sand but now they are also trying to say that not pruning is better go figure.now this is just my opinion i believe you are better off to thin the tree so to let air blow thru. im not an expert ive just been trimming trees in west-central florida for close to 20 yrs
ok if you prune the tree of course it will with stand better than a tree that hasnt been pruned. ie the wind can blow thru the tree instead of acting like a wall, but on the other hand you have to take water weakining the ground as well as location. buildings will change wind direction and also make winds turn into vortexes.i noticed that after the storms of 04 the damage to pruned trees was mostly broken limbs as to trees that hadnt been trimmed some just fell over taking lawn with them.i live in a very crowded place and is mostly sand but now they are also trying to say that not pruning is better go figure.now this is just my opinion i believe you are better off to thin the tree so to let air blow thru. im not an expert ive just been trimming trees in west-central florida for close to 20 yrs
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