If you need to be rescued...

[Tom Dunlap]

Suspension trauma is an accepted fact in high angle/working rope situations.

Read this:

http://www.rescueresponse.com/html/news11-01/training.html


http://www.fallsafety.com/pages/suspensiontrauma.htm


http://www.cancaver.ca/int/mexico/zotz/harness-death.htm


Tom

 

[treeclimber165]

Good point, Dan. I've always relied on my strong sense of self-preservation and gut instinct, in combination with learning safe methods and using safe gear. I've been in many situations where there was a chance of a limb coming back into me, but I could not figure out a safer way to cut it. In those few situations, I used common sense instead of 'blanket rules' and unclipped my lanyard before making the cut. I knew that if the limb did come back into me, I could swing out clear of it. This method has saved my butt a couple times, although as the years pass I need to do this less and less. I'm getting better at not putting myself in that position to begin with.

 

[greenguy]

Sometimes I can get company issues and public policys mixed up. I attend alot of training. I get alot of company training every year. The scenarios we use are based on the fact that their are no emt on scene. The few competions I have been involved in are based on ITCC rules and procedures sometimes rules are modified to accomidate the situations that we have at out competion. We try to train other's as well as compete. I am not a certified EMT b ut have talked with family alot about what and how to do somethings. MY family has over a 125 years of fire rescue/emt training they have incouragesd me to attend emt school that's not my career path. I have only had to make one rescue in my career. That was only about 20 ft up climber passed out from heatstroke.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Greenguy wrote:

The scenarios we use are
based on the fact that their are no emt on scene.

When you practice AR at work, what do you do if the patient doesn't have an injury that is ABC-critical? Non-life threatening in other words. A broken arm or maybe blunt force injury. Do you practice first aid application in the tree? What kind of assessment skills are you taught?

I'd like to know what companies are teaching their crews about AR.

Thanks,

Tom

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

My experiance is mostly with micro companies. The only training with AR is competition based, if any at all.

Get'm down fast, and dont bounce him to much in the prosess.

 

[treeclimber165]

I was just in chat discussing Aerial Rescue with Lync. We've asked what gear would be suggested for an emergency kit to be used in an aerial rescue. The fact remains that the gear needed would depend on the rescuer's training! For an untrained person, no gear would be good enough. For a rock climber, gaffs and saddle would not be safe. For an old-time tree gaffer, ascenders would be worthless.

Perhaps if arborist groups were to work with police/fire depts in training/certifying Aerial Rescue climbers and police had phone numbers of qualified climbers. If an aerial rescue were called for, they could start calling numbers to get someone on site ASAP.

I know that if such a program existed here, I'd be on the list. I would have no qualms about dropping everything and jumping in my truck to go try and help a fellow climber.
Money isn't even a consideration here. To discuss compensation would be an insult. Who knows, I might be the one needing to be rescued!

This is yet another issue that groups like ISA and NAA have sidestepped because it doesn't generate profits for them. They'd rather sell $150 video tapes.

 

[Nickrosis]

Originally posted by treeclimber165
This is yet another issue that groups like ISA and NAA have sidestepped because it doesn't generate profits for them. They'd rather sell $150 video tapes.

How's that?

Nickrosis

 

[kf_tree]

i agree with climber 165 in that i'd rather have a tree man come get me than a fire man or cop. i used to work with 2 fire man as ground crew. i asked them what would happen if they got a call of a climber in a tree and the ladders would not reach? they said they would call a climber. they do have an ar team but how long til they get there? but the liability of a civilian involved in a rescue could be a draw back. the fire men i work with said people think were these highly trained individuals. but they learned more about rope work and ar doing tree work than they were taught at the academy.

i once got a call of a falling tree. by the time i got there the fire dept was trying to cut it down. it was just a pine that was up rooted half way. they were having a hard time getting at it because of the power lines. i spoke to the guy in charge and told him to move the truck and come at it from the back side to avoid the power lines. he said, hey thats a good idea and had the guys move the rig. i'm not knocking the fire men. the big joke on my old job was , i won't tell you how to put out fires and you don't tell me how to cut down a tree.

 

[treeclimber165]

Nickrosis

"How's that?"

OK, I'll bite. Even my knowledge of the goings-on at NAA and ISA are minimal at best.
Do your local police and fire departments have phone numbers for Aerial Rescue certified tree climbers? Are you on the list? I didn't think so.

I'd gladly pay to have an Aerial Rescue certification from ISA or NAA on the condition that it would be RECOGNIZED and USED by local police and fire departments. I feel that I would be better qualified to extract an injured climber from a tree than a fireman on a ladder. I'm not talking major medical care, just getting the injured climber safely to the ground where the medically qualified people can do their job.

 

[kf_tree]

your right 165 there should be a certification. what about all the volunteer mountain rescue teams that were brought in to help search at the world trade center. they flew in a couple of hundred people plus a bunch of dog teams. why not a cetification for arial rescue.

 

[Nickrosis]

That's a gigantic issue for someone to tackle! Right off the bat, I'd say liability would be your largest issue. At school, programs are being closed and shutdown almost daily because of liability and insurance issues. If it doesn't have the approval of Risk Management, it doesn't happen. Unfortunately, we're watching our climbing and pruning opportunities get taken out of our own hands at the moment.

I'm not saying that what you're asking couldn't happen - it could, but it's not as simple as you're implying nor is it the negiligence of our industry that we don't have a program like that already. The way I see it, people used for aerial rescues like that would have to be full-time employees of the rescue agency, covered under their liability insurance.

Without that kind of an umbrella, who would be there to pay a lawsuit - the climber - if something went wrong in the process.....or even if things went perfectly! A sue-happy person could go after you even if you did everything right but the person still suffered or died. Unless you were employed by the rescue agency, the fire department would have no reason to accept responsibility in a claim like that.

I'm not asking you to bite bait, but I do expect people to back up what they say. It doesn't matter if I agree with your reasoning, but you should provide it when you criticize someone. I received a personal attack this week over this issue, and I'm still reeling from it.

Nickrosis

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

A vidio tape is at least a step closer to something truely usefull. Those vids are at least familiarization courses.

I agree with the need to better understand suspention trauma and other problems. Training in immidiate first aid.

If the guy took a big swing and bounced the trunk a few times, would lowering him fast be a good idea? How many people carry any form of comdression bandage for seriouse cuts?

My understanding of the tournequet issue is that it can cause stroke and embolims on removal.

 

[Tim Gardner]

Why are the fire boys not required to have a trained climber on each shift? Are arborists not valuable enough or maybe enough climbers have not died to warrant trained firemen? You can order basic climbing gear from Sherrill including a saw for around $1,000.00. If they can ride around in $250,000.00 toys to get donuts and coffee why can they not buy gear and get trained? Do the fire boys only care about being thought of as heroes and speeding through traffic looking cool?

I once seen a fireman drag one of those aluminum “road work ahead” signs a couple of miles before he stopped to cut it out from under his p/u truck. I think he was too busy looking cool to notice.

If I was being rescued by a fireman and was conscious, I am not sure which I would cut out of the tree. Me to get my death over with or him to keep him from killing me. There is a big difference between dragging water hoses around and doing an aerial rescue. I have seen firemen fall off of ladders climbing to the roof of a one story house.

 

[TREETX]

TIM's Quote:


You can order basic climbing gear from Sherrill including a saw for around $1,000.00. If they can ride around in $250,000.00 toys to get donuts and coffee why can they not buy gear and get trained? Do the fire boys only care about being thought of as heroes and speeding through traffic looking cool?

I agree but would not have the nerve to say it in this post 911 "hero" attutidude going around.

 

[treeclimber165]

Nick,
As far as liability issues, that can easily be addressed with a combination of current 'good samaritan' laws already in place and specific requirements and conditions to be applied towards an Aerial Rescue Certification.

Back to the original question on this thread- Who would YOU want rescuing you? A tree climber who climbs trees daily AND has passed an Aerial Rescue Certification? Or a fireman who has had 3 days training on climbing trees? I'd most certainly prefer an EMT attending me once I was on the ground, but I don't want a nervous fireman 50' in the air trying to figure out how to get me to the ground safely.

 

[Toddppm]

Some of the rescue teams that went to NYC and the Turkey earthquakes and all the big catastrophries in the world are from here- Fairfax County Fire + Rescue. The cave-in teams and dog handlers too. They go through constant training and they're good! BUT I watched them one day training on double ascenders all day and I was thinking what's wrong with those guys, whys it taking them so long to get up those ropes? They are so safety consciece they have to follow procedures by the book, slow as hell. I don't think there is any chance they'd ever get permission to climb a tree, it's an unkown factor. Theres no pre-measured stress and strength related calculations that can be made on a growing/changing tree.
In one of my classes when we introduce ourselves I said I was a tree climber and the instructor made a joke out of rescuing climbers by just cutting the tree down an step off before it hits the ground like in the cartoons, real funny
I think you're right Tim , there just aren't enough accidents or we aren't important enough to justify training on rescuing us, we're on our own.
I'm guilty, I've never reviewed this with my guys, we don't do trees everday , I will have to get something together right now and discuss this with them.

 

[Tim Gardner]

Just because firemen died in NY does not mean all of them are heroes. It took fireboys over two hours to “rescue” my brother from a tree after he had an accident while he was roping out logs. He was pinned between the log and the stub. Tree climbers get killed all the time but that does not mean all of them are heroes and that I can’t express my opinions about their lack of training and lack of initiative to acquire the training. That goes DOUBLE for firemen. They are paid to save lives and property, not be put up on a pedestal. Any time a fireman wants to have a face to face conversation with me about the way I feel about them they can. This is America and I think we still have the right to freedom of speech.

 

[xander9727]

Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn
How many people carry any form of comdression bandage for seriouse cuts?

My understanding of the tournequet issue is that it can cause stroke and embolims on removal.

If you're not carrying a compression bandage or at least something that will work as a compression bandage (i.e. a kotex and an ace bandage) you're unprepared to be using outdoor power equipment IMO. Additionally, only qualified medical personnel should remove a tourniquet! Anyone with minimal anatomy knowledge can apply a tourniquet. If it's only serious veinous bleeding (not arterial) and you apply a tourniquet, there is little chance of permanant damage if the victim arrives at a hospital within 4 hours. The biggest precaution with tourniquets is only tighten them until the bleeding stops! There is a chance of causing a crushing injury if you crank them down as tight as you can. The ace bandage and kotex for a compression bandage is a cheap readily available sterile dressing. I ALWAYS have a tourniquet, several compression bandages, J-tubes, c-collars, ace bandages, curlex, etc...on site. An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.

 

[Reed]

Easy now.

There was a death that in all probability could've been avoided but it happened. Accidents happen and the only saving grace is that they remind us often that we're mortal and could be next so watch ourselves, always think about consequences.

True, while the "hero worship" shows us how easily our perceptions can be influenced, please don't clump all rescue workers together like our leaders in Washington and the news media use cheap soundbites and repititious gloss to convince a growing ignorant population that's led easily by the nose ring the more crap they dish-out. Think about the reality. 380 firemen were killed at the trade center, only about 28 cops I believe yet the mayor and president would like us to think they both deserve a spot in heaven.

There's risks involved in any endeavor. Sailor, flag maker, or undertaker. Minimizing risk is our mandate for ourselves and crews. Simply following guidlines isn't enough or a switch of responsibilities from ourselves to a list of codes. Every rule in the book followed religiously will still fall short of common sense usage of our own awareness and no one can teach that but accidents like Tim's friend had help us to increase our own awareness. High cost learning, tragic occurance, but to find the positive out of it - we'll think more.

We should never reach for comfort or defer the reality of: if an accident happens we got trained back-up to fix us. Assume no one will help then base your decisions from that premise. Rescue crews do have a lot to learn and like our own profession there's good committed ones and schlofs as well. Some just like the badge but lack the honor it should take to earn one while others are truely angels - I've had those tend to me at times, let's please not forget them.

The two deaths we've heard of the last three weeks - from what's relayed it appears both would matter none if qualified help were immediately available.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

If applying a tourniquette, write the sate and time on the forhead of the injured with a T; T=11:45 oct11. Then the medical personel wont have to ask.