In Or Out (Cabling and bracing a large damaged tree)

[Mitchell]

A series of pics here I snapped today for tommorows work [If I feel like fighting the weather] hopefully, in some sence of order. The disclamer, In case I do not make sence, I'm working on three hours sleep in the last couple days; couple busy nights at the HAll. I want your opinion on cabling this tree.

A couple weeks ago I put in a bid to remove one decadent cypress and and cable its brethern for a yacht club. The club wants me to cable the removal tree as well now; which I said I could do but would make the final call when I get there tommorow. The 100 year old ish trees have been "pruned" by the sailers' have core rot, multiple included branch junctions, and the tree in question is over the barbeque pit. I snapped these pics when I slipped by today to make sure I had enouph steel to do it...

Picture of tree to cable. Should be straight forward; cable three "co doms" back to main trunck.

series of distant shots of tree in question...

Im thinking of cabling left branch [no target] to top then two more down to right branches [right side is failing to target area].

The three main braches in the middle top right are the failing section [six foot crack], one main branch broke off opposite side.

Main damage, lots of peripheral damge to branches is present but not visible in pics.

 

[Mitchell]

A few mroe for the for the interested

Also of note is the tree is a fixture for the club. The tree is also exposed to the prevailing winds that blow up from the Pujet Sound. There is a fiar bit of peripheral damage to the branches not visible in the pics.

I scampered up to the failure to take a few close ups. This is looking north and down. Cavity is filled with coon poo, hopefully I do not run into one!

South side looking down.

Close up of branch failure. Looking north. Cracked from crotch down.

Main trunk looking up from failing crotch. The stem has rot but lots of reaction wood. I want to tie failing side into it and drop a cable down to the main branch opposite for extra security

The top of the main stem looking up from crotch. I think the best place to tie into might be the top where it splits into two tops.

Im have enouph stuff to brace it with two 5/8 rods,l however based on what I have been reading lately I wonder if it would help at all. Any and all informed opinion would be apprecaited as I am still debating wether or not I should have agreed to retian this tree.

 

[Techstuf]

Hmmm

Looks like you've bitten off more than you may be able to chew....


Yahweh bless your undertaking.


TS

 

[S Mc]

Mitchell, I don't know whether you got out to your trees today? However, I was wondering how (if) you did any pruning. (Over and above removal of the damaged and broken limbs, of course.) Many cypress lend themselves well to a wind-directed/sculpted look. By reducing the length of some of the long limbs and directing the growth of some of the shorter ones, you could reduce the wind resistance considerably and bring the tree into a more manageable frame. Still maintaining its growth style, just a bit more stylized and a great deal safer/smaller.

I'm curious, what have you read that makes you think bracing is not a good idea? Have you determined how much (if any) rot is in the trunk section of this tree? I am looking at the scar up the trunk and wondering how much of an impact it has to the tree's structural integrity.

Sylvia

 

[treevet]

It all should come down to how much risk the property owner/owners are willing to sustain after being informed by top level arborists. A good well written disclaimer should go hand in hand with your proposal/contract. I would consider consulting, for a fee of course, with a high level arb on site as it is impossible to assess the situation or potential treatment (esp bracing and cabling) from pictures. I would want to move around to different perspectives.

As far as decay detection, a system such as a resistograph can be rented. There should be no desire to rush into this venture as you may find yourself at a distinct disadvantage.

I would do little or no pruning based on the quantity of foliage already lost on this mature tree at this time except broken or dead limbs. Mature trees in particular have more difficulty losing canopy than younger trees (Shigo).

 

[bigden]

looks like a crane job to me can you get one with in a 100 feet.:monkey:

 

[Mitchell]

thanks for the input

I was a no show, I wimped out and had a family day instead. Although it was only -2 or so, it was approaching minus 20 with wind chill yesterday, not fun trying to splice cable with bare hands in that.

I had hoped more arbs would offer a few opinions, thanks to those that did.

A few comments on your thoughts.

I had not planned on using a crane to remove it as the reach to the tree would mean such small pieces coming off I might as well cut and drag it. There are however a few tall dead trees in the area [with targets below] that might make the crane a good choice if everyone wants to get rid of the trees at the same time.

I had a good chat with the yacht club rep about liability, the fact the tree might have to come down in a few years anyways or day of if I find the tree to rotten after drilling, and as part and parcel of cabling they have to agree to semi annual inspections.

Thanks for the offer of help tree vet. The air fare to get you here from Cinci would make the job distinctly unprofitable unfortunately ha ha. Hopefully some day I can accommodate you.

I do not feel I am out of my league [or arrogant]. I do value the often expert opinions found here however. I posted as lots of you have done this many times and may have some insight I had not considered or reinforce my conclusions. I have called in a arb friend who only consults [with the resitograph] in the past. Their findings and ultimate recommendations have always been essentially the same as mine [I use a small diameter ships auger to probe].

I am only a few years into my arborist life but I have been working with trees for almost 2 decades, most of that doing hazardous tree removal on trees most fallers wanted no part of. Not to over dramatize, but your life depends on developing a very keen sense of how serious defects in trees will react. The physical cabling and bracing is essentially monkey skills and the ansi standards take any guess work out of it.

Treevet, as you stated, I had planned on pruning this old tree as little as possible this year with recommendation to further reduce the canopy annually until security and codit are balanced.

In so far as questioning bracing, I have had several informal chats with other arbs who found that, 1; bracing only [with out cabling] seems to be basically ineffective [more so on decadent trees], and 2; if the split is still effectively sound, drilling holes through the wound may ultimately do more harm then good if the support needed to prevent failure is being achieved with cabling. After a few weeks of installing engineered platforms in trees on a tree top zip line course I personally have wondered if something like a wide truckers tie down strap that could be backed off periodically might be a better solution.

I am not advocating or denying the bracing points above. Any thoughts on that would be appreciated. Not wanting to stray from current practices I had planned on 2 braces with three cables.

 

[treeseer]

Not wanting to stray from current practices I had planned on 2 braces with three cables.

Sounds like you are going with the program--good! Proceed as planned--I would also second Sylvia's notion of reducing the limbs you do not cable, per need, to prevent another catastrophic failure. I see a lot of needles left on the tree to photosynthesize--what % of the crown was the busted lead?

I agree with her--this tree looks like a missed opportunity to veteranize by pruning, so now support is needed. O and why splice when there are wirestops--www.rigguy.com?

Bon Chance!

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I'm with Sylvia and Guy on thinning for leverage reduction on the tips.

Bracing as in threaded rod through the defect is a good idea, bracing as in prop support has less of a history in general Arboriculture, but has it's place.

[img http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=84081&stc=1&d=1229311382[/img]
Though I think through bolts on this would make matters worse from a CODIT standpoint.

One uses bracing to prevent this type of failure. I would through bolt the split in the top of the picture, maybe through the limbs, not the actual split. Maybe both.

The target value is high, but i do not think the tree is unsalvageable, from my armchair here in. As long as the decision maker understands that the treatment is just extending the life of the tree, then it is ethical to try to implement their wishes.

Is it possible to move some of the target away from the failure zone?

 

[Mitchell]

windfirming

Thanks for the post treeseer.

I had planned on recomending wind firming down the road; with some tip reduction now. The broken lead constitutes 5 to 10%, all breakage is more like 20%.

I'm still in the splicing game due to the supplies I bought last year, once they are used up I will to order the simpler setups.

When you get a chance; what are your thoughts on bracing trees?

 

[Mitchell]

I'm with Sylvia and Guy on thinning for leverage reduction on the tips.

Bracing as in threaded rod through the defect is a good idea, bracing as in prop support has less of a history in general Arboriculture, but has it's place.

Though I think through bolts on this would make matters worse from a CODIT standpoint.

One uses bracing to prevent this type of failure. I would through bolt the split in the top of the picture, maybe through the limbs, not the actual split. Maybe both.

The target value is high, but i do not think the tree is unsalvageable, from my armchair here in. As long as the decision maker understands that the treatment is just extending the life of the tree, then it is ethical to try to implement their wishes.

Is it possible to move some of the target away from the failure zone?

Good point on moving the barbeque pit, no target no problem, I will mention that. When I looked at the gazebo it was underground wired and on a slab, combined with the fact they feel the tree and its over hanging branches are what make the area attractive; I feel they wont want to.

One problem with bracing [and installing the annon rods for that matter] Im anticipating is; depending on where sound wood that is able to bear the load, the angle of the branches might require massive long holes drilled to keep the angle of the hardware pointing at each other. I wonder if the trade off of cheating the angle some what is better from a codit perspective?

 

[treevet]

I was a no show, I wimped out and had a family day instead. Although it was only -2 or so, it was approaching minus 20 with wind chill yesterday, not fun trying to splice cable with bare hands in that.

I had hoped more arbs would offer a few opinions, thanks to those that did.

A few comments on your thoughts.

I had not planned on using a crane to remove it as the reach to the tree would mean such small pieces coming off I might as well cut and drag it. There are however a few tall dead trees in the area [with targets below] that might make the crane a good choice if everyone wants to get rid of the trees at the same time.

I had a good chat with the yacht club rep about liability, the fact the tree might have to come down in a few years anyways or day of if I find the tree to rotten after drilling, and as part and parcel of cabling they have to agree to semi annual inspections.

Thanks for the offer of help tree vet. The air fare to get you here from Cinci would make the job distinctly unprofitable unfortunately ha ha. Hopefully some day I can accommodate you.

I do not feel I am out of my league [or arrogant]. I do value the often expert opinions found here however. I posted as lots of you have done this many times and may have some insight I had not considered or reinforce my conclusions. I have called in a arb friend who only consults [with the resitograph] in the past. Their findings and ultimate recommendations have always been essentially the same as mine [I use a small diameter ships auger to probe].

I am only a few years into my arborist life but I have been working with trees for almost 2 decades, most of that doing hazardous tree removal on trees most fallers wanted no part of. Not to over dramatize, but your life depends on developing a very keen sense of how serious defects in trees will react. The physical cabling and bracing is essentially monkey skills and the ansi standards take any guess work out of it.

Treevet, as you stated, I had planned on pruning this old tree as little as possible this year with recommendation to further reduce the canopy annually until security and codit are balanced.

In so far as questioning bracing, I have had several informal chats with other arbs who found that, 1; bracing only [with out cabling] seems to be basically ineffective [more so on decadent trees], and 2; if the split is still effectively sound, drilling holes through the wound may ultimately do more harm then good if the support needed to prevent failure is being achieved with cabling. After a few weeks of installing engineered platforms in trees on a tree top zip line course I personally have wondered if something like a wide truckers tie down strap that could be backed off periodically might be a better solution.

I am not advocating or denying the bracing points above. Any thoughts on that would be appreciated. Not wanting to stray from current practices I had planned on 2 braces with three cables.

I again would like to reitterate that delaying the removal of any live tissue would be prudent. You stated the tree has sustained an approx. 20% canopy loss. You seem aware of the negative effects that significant canopy loss can have on this 100 year old tree. It can be done incrementally over a few seasons while the tree is initially made safer by getting out the broken and hanging limbs, cabling and possibly bracing and the moving of a high level target. "Over pruning leads to root problems (on mature trees)" Shigo, "Tree Pruning" and combined with the 20 % damage incurred this essentially is the same thing. Pathogens will be the next issue with loss of roots and storage.

"Remove live foliage from a mature or over mature tree only for good reason! Refrain from removing any live foliage from a stressed tree because they need as much sugar generating capacity as possible. Removing live tissue on a mature tree removes stored energy and forces the tree to react and expend energy unnecessarily causing many potential problems. ANSI A300 Pruning Standards allow up to 25 percent of live foliage removal on mature trees , but this too much in many circumstances." Gilman, "Pruning" 2nd Ed. THIS tree is going to have to compartmentalize all these wounds and draw on storage. This tree is stressed.

I was not trying to solicit a job I was suggesting you enlist another arb. such that you have in the past. The fact that he always agrees with you all the time should never dissuade you from continuing this practice. To substantiate your opinion with another opinion from an expert is the best thing for everyone involved. It makes you look good, him look good and the client feel good about their arborist (you) and the ensuing decision. The fact that he has a machine and knows how to use it, even better.

You are very knowledgeable for a new to the game arb although I understand that you have 2 decades of untitled experience as a logger. To notice compensating growth (reaction wood) around the decayed area would go right by most. Your thoughts shared about supports are very insightful. I would not be inclined to strap the stem. It is not invasive but on the other hand conductive tissue will be compressed and made less effective or even killed. Opportunist, successive attacks of pathogens follow

It is great that you had a heart to heart with the club rep. They are made aware that they may be able to enjoy the tree for a limited number of years hence but there is some risk to be assumed. Semi annual inspections are smart to be included. I would personally stay with the old school cabling as there is a significant part of the cable that cannot be inspected (in the hole) on the "new fangled" rigguy stuff.

 

[treeseer]

...wind firming down the road; with some tip reduction now. The broken lead constitutes 5 to 10%, all breakage is more like 20%.

Light tip work now; prudent. From 20 to 22%, despite dave's passion, not a big deal if it avoids a high risk of further branch failure.

When you get a chance; what are your thoughts on bracing trees?

Like JPS says it is a tradeoff, risking decay from broken boundaries to prevent further failure from a crack. BMP's are way heavy on the recommendations imo; I questioned the author on 6 rods going into a street tree with a 4" crack, per the BMP's. I thought more than 2 was overkill.

Guess who won? Oh well, the tree is vital so it will likely be okay.

Carry on, and keep the good pics and notes coming!

 

[Mitchell]

Insightfull replies

insight full

Well This pic should clear up whether or not its going to stay or go; I was chased out by nightfall an hour ago... heading up at dusk with 6 annon 5/8 rods, I only managed one before I gave up. This dark at 16:30 sure hits the bottom line.

After drilling I feel much better as the wood despite the crack, visible on the stem above defect split, was solid all the way through. We had 80 k winds yesterday and nothing changed tree wise.

The hardware should line up, I was worried if I could not get a cable high up to the main stem the angle of attachment to the right angle branches would flatten, requiring me to drill the rods closer to the plane of the branch and consequently make huge long holes. That's what I was asking earlier: whats worse, lining up the bolts, or allowing lateral stress on the bolt?

Good to see some debate on pruning, its how we learn. The situation is not as grim as I thought, a lot of this peripheral damage [despite being green] looks to be old. One big lateral crack on a branch had a black berry bush growing out of it! I strongly suspect the main split might be 3 years old considering with the hurricane we had.

My instinct is to prune as little as possible and revisit it annually. Some tip reduction on a few non cabled included bark branch junction branches this year. How likely are the carbs created at the end of a long branch making it back to the the problem areas, or is it a net loss issue Treevet? Perhaps opening up the upper canopy next year: letting the smaller lower branches closer to the crack and split get a little light for future codit and structural help closer to the problems; thoughts on that?

Considering the age of the split and the sheer size of the new wound where the branch pulled out [will this wound ever codit I wonder], I might just go with one rod just above the split although it will end up being 6 to 7 feet long.

No worries Treevet I was teasing you on the job offer. Based on your input I think I will get my very experienced arb friend to vet my work. After having the recently outed commodore steal half an hour of my life today, I know If this fails under the wrong circumstances [or right], I will likely be in court. I suspect there is/was some power struggle going on and the tree is a focus of that.

Thanks for the kind words. When I came out the bush and went into residential tree care, I quickly realized I was a one service company," I don't know but I can cut it down for you" only went so far. I try to check my ego, listen, read, take the odd course. Nothing has been more helpful overall then this sight. So thanks to all of us here. Although it is hard not to get caught up in the entertaining threads.

 

[treevet]

You are a hero (to that tree)!

 

[treeseer]

whats worse, lining up the bolts, or allowing lateral stress on the bolt?

Side loading is worse. Drilling longer holes does not increase decay risk that much, so is better, say the BMP's.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Cabling is a preventive measure that you should stress to the client and get a disclaimer. Cabling does not guarantee the tree will not fail. Me-- I would bid to remove and move on.
Jeff Lovstrom

 

[treevet]

Side loading is worse. Drilling longer holes does not increase decay risk that much, so is better, say the BMP's.

We have disagreed on this before Guy, so I am not saying this to be contradictive but to give another perspective.

Alex Shigo did extensive research on the relationship of different holes to the amount of decayed or discolored (dead) wood. He did not pass on info or derive his info from readings of others. He wounded trees, dissected them and then recorded what he found.

"1. Small shallow holes cause the least injury. Very narrow holes deep into the trunk cause little injury. Large deep holes that touch other columns of infected wood cause the greatest amount of injury .
2. Slanted holes cause large columns of discolored wood (dead wood). Large columns of discolored wood decrease greatly the energy storage capacity of the tree.
3. Small, shallow holes, no deeper than 2 growth rings, cause the least amount of injury, esp when there are no other large columns of infected wood in the tree; and when the tree is a strong compartmentalizer."

Source: Modern Arboriculture, Alex L. Shigo

 

[treeseer]

Very narrow holes deep into the trunk cause little injury.

Thank you for confirming that wirestops are the best support technology!

Large deep holes that touch other columns of infected wood cause the greatest amount of injury .

Well duh more surface area more tissue lost more wound, got it. But where is side loading mentioned here?

So these observations while valuable do not answer or even address Mitchell's question hence consult the BMP's. The price went up a couple bucks but check your couch for change and buy it ok?

 

[treevet]

Thank you for confirming that wirestops are the best support technology! Well duh more surface area more tissue lost more wound, got it. But where is side loading mentioned here?

So these observations while valuable do not answer or even address Mitchell's question hence consult the BMP's. The price went up a couple bucks but check your couch for change and buy it ok?

I still do not like the wirestops because of the hidden encapsulated (5/16 or 3/8 cable) that is unable to be inspected. Would prefer to have a forged solid twice that size galvanized bolt (solid 5/8 bolt as opposed to a 5/16 fragmented cable) be the hidden aspect of the system. (I'd actually take a 5/8 lag over rig guy in some circumstances).

"Well duh....more tissue lost more wound...." I would opt for the shorter span of the bolt insertion if load is not a huge issue. BMP's are not science but rather wading into a commonly held opinion (hit and miss so to speak). They are new and if challenged in court probably would mean nothing at all as compared to ANSI standards. I know they are your big soapbox platform. I do have some tho, just not cabling and bracing. I only have 40 years of practical experience installing probably 70 or 80 cables on an average year. Have monitored them and that is scientific to some degree IMO. They are sometimes dissected by the woodsplitter when trees die as they have a tendency to do at times.