In Or Out (Cabling and bracing a large damaged tree)

[Mitchell]

Very astute bringing the attention to the importance of the galvanized hardware and cable Jomoco. Weakest link may be this issue. Bending, crimping etc, or mixing metals will degrade the galv coating (zinc I believe?). As for the roofing tar coating on the threaded rod, I was taught by the big B back in my start to drill the hole 1/16 smaller than the rod and thread it into the hole (pipe wrench with a pipe on the end of it) rather than drill the hole the same size as the rod and bang it in with a hammer which is all I see done these days. I do it old school as it makes for a better grip and may be of little or no consequence if the nuts come off or degrade. Covered in roofing tar, I'm not gonna get that rod thru that hole.

I think thought should be given to cracks possibly formed by the ram's horns where the woundwood is formed around the long decay void. Cracks are responsible for many failures with or without decay involved.

You are right Sylvia, this tree may and prob wood have done just fine left to its own devices if those darn human beings weren't involved in the equation again. No target......no work nec. likely. Long life remaining for this tree despite what we do to (for) it.

Good point Treevet. I have followed the BMP which for the 5/8 rod suggests a 11/16 or 3/4 inch hole be drilled. On a couple 4 foot drills I have done I found I needed to tap the rod through even with an over size hole. I can't imagine how hard it must be for you to wind it through if thats even possible. My limited knowledge suggests the damage done by a 3/4 vs a 7/16 hole on a 3.5' diameter trunk is inconsequental. On a smaller 1' installation I think I might try threading it through.

I have never felt the need to tar an installation yet, But this may be the one. When researching rusting rates of various metals I read that galv with tar [or some o2, h2o, sunlight excluding substance like tar plastic etc] is next best to a non rusting metal. As tarring cuts used to be in practice I figured it could not be to toxic to the tree but I would be interested in your opinions on that. The advantage of a over size hole is you can tar it I suppose. With trees on the ocean front this may be a required trade off. Experiences with my fathers house and other homes I have worked that live on the ocean suggest metal goes fast with salt exposure.

 

[jomoco]

You guys aint gonna believe this, but about 15 years ago the owner of one of the largest privately owned tree companies in SD had a young chinese elm(Ulmus parvifolia) with included bark split down the middle, with the split section lying in his driveway. Tree was about 20 feet tall with a 5 inch DBH. It was at his personal residence.

I talked my old friend into letting me zip the youngster back together and upright with 3 rods and one cable.

The tree stands tall and healthy today at over 40 feet and spreading, the only visible hardware is the galvanized cable.

I'll have pics of it after january.

True story.

jomoco

 

[treevet]

Elms are a good candidate for picking them up of the floor and putting them back together. I've done a number of them. They are so flexible they do not break the conductive tissue. This is a real important system to monitor over the years. If the cable breaks.....who knows? After all the tree is drawn up tight and the cables installed, THEN the rods are installed. If the cable broke esp with the increased mass over the years it is questionable as to whether the rods would sustain the shock load. The fault/crack will be there for the life of the tree.

 

[treeseer]

After all the tree is drawn up tight and the cables installed, THEN the rods are installed. .

Mr. Shaw Sir are you sure these steps are in the right order?

:yoyo:

 

[treevet]

Mr. Shaw Sir are you sure these steps are in the right order?

:yoyo:

Yes......It really doesn't matter once the tree is fitted back together with a come a long (or plural). Put the bolts in first or install the cable but the tension is used for the cable. The tension will not be released until after the bolts are put in. I wouldn't even think of drawing up the split section, putting in the bolts and then releasing the tension into the bolts (trusting the bolts alone to hold the tree together alone) then re tensioning the cables(cable) for installation.

Would you? Let's hear your scenario. I have done this a LOT of times. Trying to imagine what you've got in your mind TS. What's the yo yo insinuating if anything? This is an unusual situation where the tree is split to the ground not just a little fault. Most arbs would remove this tree.

 

[treevet]

Yes......It really doesn't matter once the tree is fitted back together with a come a long (or plural). Put the bolts in first or install the cable but the tension is used for the cable. The tension will not be released until after the bolts are put in. I wouldn't even think of drawing up the split section, putting in the bolts and then releasing the tension into the bolts (trusting the bolts alone to hold the tree together alone) then re tensioning the cables(cable) for installation.

Would you? Let's hear your scenario. I have done this a LOT of times. Trying to imagine what you've got in your mind TS. What's the yo yo insinuating if anything? This is an unusual situation where the tree is split to the ground not just a little fault. Most arbs would remove this tree.

Wait.....I'm not backing off the cables going in first. Hopefully find a couple good spots equidistant from the fault in the canopy. Set the eyebolts, hang the cable, go over to the other side of the fault and drill the holes, eyes, thimbles.....then set the 2 (at least) comelongs, attached to cable clamps to the cable and alternate draw the fault to where it meets together at about the same time (sometimes there will be a problem with woundwood not allowing a good match as often this split was there for a few years before the big split) but just get as tight as poss.

THEN you can add the bolts or cables in either order (I'd tend to go with the cables bcs I am already up there). But the fact is that the cables started prior to the bolts.

Again.....your scenario, Mr. Mayor. opcorn: :sword:

 

[jomoco]

Yes......It really doesn't matter once the tree is fitted back together with a come a long (or plural). Put the bolts in first or install the cable but the tension is used for the cable. The tension will not be released until after the bolts are put in. I wouldn't even think of drawing up the split section, putting in the bolts and then releasing the tension into the bolts (trusting the bolts alone to hold the tree together alone) then re tensioning the cables(cable) for installation.

Would you? Let's hear your scenario. I have done this a LOT of times. Trying to imagine what you've got in your mind TS. What's the yo yo insinuating if anything? This is an unusual situation where the tree is split to the ground not just a little fault. Most arbs would remove this tree.

With a 5 foot vertical split, I used triangulated ropes and blocks, and a helper to get the tree relatively upright again while cinching the main trunk with ropes as I stood it up.

The lowest rod went in first and tightened, then the next rod 18-20 inches higher up the trunk and tightened, then the last rod right where the crack initiated and tightened, the cable last.

It pretty much has to go back together the same way it came apart. If you did the cable first you would get bowing of the split and misaligned wood and rods subsequently.

Atleast that's how I did that particular split elm 15 years ago. !/4 inch cable and 1/2 inch rods.

jomoco

 

[treevet]

With a 5 foot vertical split, I used triangulated ropes and blocks, and a helper to get the tree relatively upright again while cinching the main trunk with ropes as I stood it up.

The lowest rod went in first and tightened, then the next rod 18-20 inches higher up the trunk and tightened, then the last rod right where the crack initiated and tightened, the cable last.

It pretty much has to go back together the same way it came apart. If you did the cable first you would get bowing of the split and misaligned wood and rods subsequently.

Atleast that's how I did that particular split elm 15 years ago. !/4 inch cable and 1/2 inch rods.

jomoco

I think I am thinking a much larger tree than you are Jomoco. I know what you mean, but the ones I have done there is no bowing of the split segments. But what you did with the ropes I eliminate and do with the cables themselves, and come a longs and cable clamps. I could easily put the bolts in prior to finishing the cable and torque them but it doesn't really matter as the system's tightness will not be engaged until after the cables are spliced AND the bolts are in. At this time both the cables and the bolts are engaged when the tension is backed off the come a longs.

 

[Mitchell]

few points

I think I am thinking a much larger tree than you are Jomoco. I know what you mean, but the ones I have done there is no bowing of the split segments. But what you did with the ropes I eliminate and do with the cables themselves, and come a longs and cable clamps. I could easily put the bolts in prior to finishing the cable and torque them but it doesn't really matter as the system's tightness will not be engaged until after the cables are spliced AND the bolts are in. At this time both the cables and the bolts are engaged when the tension is backed off the come a longs.

Glad to see you Senior arb vets are discussing my Johny come lately issues. I have a couple questions related to your latest discussion. I was planning on installing a 7' 3/4" rod above the split after I had installed the cables. The split is approaching 4."

I'm pretty certain the split is old and the big branch finally failed recently, should I attempt to force it back with my come along and masden rope puller, or set it at its current position? I was planning on making the decision when I pull it and get a feel for the resistance to standing up; it seems to have re set in its current position. Also why do you like a couple pullers for uniformity or redundancy in case of failure.

Would using over size washers be an advantage; some arbs in informal discussions have suggested and use large backing plates to spread the PSI out? Outside of ansi 300 but seems to make sense. The zip courses I have some insight into do that very thing.

Treevet do you use cable clamps? I thought that was frowned upon; I have seen them used regularly; as posted earlier, My experience is engineers prefer them.

What are your feeling on ansi 300 cabling and bracing? I wonder if engineers who consider trees like building materials ignore the realities of living structures.

Treevet I am still interested in your threading the rod in practice. Why do the BMP's not offer this as an option? I, in my limited experience, have not heard of it done.

 

[treevet]

Glad to see you Senior arb vets are discussing my Johny come lately issues. I have a couple questions related to your latest discussion. I was planning on installing a 7' 3/4" rod above the split after I had installed the cables. The split is approaching 4."

I'm pretty certain the split is old and the big branch finally failed recently, should I attempt to force it back with my come along and masden rope puller, or set it at its current position? I was planning on making the decision when I pull it and get a feel for the resistance to standing up; it seems to have re set in its current position. Also why do you like a couple pullers for uniformity or redundancy in case of failure.

Would using over size washers be an advantage; some arbs in informal discussions have suggested and use large backing plates to spread the PSI out? Outside of ansi 300 but seems to make sense. The zip courses I have some insight into do that very thing.

Treevet do you use cable clamps? I thought that was frowned upon; I have seen them used regularly; as posted earlier, My experience is engineers prefer them.

What are your feeling on ansi 300 cabling and bracing? I wonder if engineers who consider trees like building materials ignore the realities of living structures.

Treevet I am still interested in your threading the rod in practice. Why do the BMP's not offer this as an option? I, in my limited experience, have not heard of it done.

Mitchell, Can't picture the screw rod application but try not to have any bolt holes in vert. alignment. It will cause dieback between them. Is this damage a result of the amateur pruning ("sailor" in your words, do you think).

I think you are right in waiting to see how it "agrees" to come together if it is an old split. Must be some heavy stuff if you are going 3/4" rod. "A couple of pullers" for more and uniform leverage like you said, on either side of split

Over size washers prob a good idea if you aren't going to thread the rod thru with a small dia hole than the rod (this gives more holding across the holding wood than bigger dia hole and just push the rod thru ). You will likely get more die back behind the bigger washers but you will get more holding surface. We used to pre-trace the washer and we used to used diamond shaped washers. Not SOP anymore.

I always screw up the word clamp (even tho it does clamp) but cable grip better term referring to the device put on the come a long to grip the cable when pulling. I splice cable and take pride in the quality of the splice (forced by early employment).

I have ANSI 300 (Part 3) 2006 on the desk in front of me. Probably should become more familiar with. I have just leaved thru it. Don't like a few things in it so I am stubborn to not acquaint myself with it. I have had success with the techs. I have learned from large established tree companies (so have they) so I feel they likely know more than the ANSI committee. It is possible.
We talk extensively on these forums about the techs. and the best reason to follow the ANSI to the letter would likely be to CYA if you go to court (and you got the impression from the rep there is discention within and court a possiblilty if an accident). ANSI good to have behind you in court. It is well and universally recognized.

Last paragraph....threading rod thru was SOP in early 70's in the biggest best companies where I was located just west of NYC area. Why would it be made with a lag thread if the thread was not to be involved? A machine thread would be just as good and used outside of the small tree profession use in favor of the manufacturers.

 

[Mitchell]

clarification on screw rod

Mitchell, Can't picture the screw rod application but try not to have any bolt holes in vert. alignment. It will cause dieback between them. Is this damage a result of the amateur pruning ("sailor" in your words, do you think).

I always screw up the word clamp (even tho it does clamp) but cable grip better term referring to the device put on the come a long to grip the cable when pulling. I splice cable and take pride in the quality of the splice (forced by early employment).

Last paragraph....threading rod thru was SOP in early 70's in the biggest best companies where I was located just west of NYC area. Why would it be made with a lag thread if the thread was not to be involved? A machine thread would be just as good and used outside of the small tree profession use in favor of the manufacturers.

I plan on drilling a rod above the split, through the branch on the left continued through the main trunk on the right. About 6 feet in all. I do not have the ansi 300 in front of me but I believe on wood >40" diameter, they want 7/8 rod! This as around 40" diameter. The BMP's were not clear on what rod diameter to use conjunction with cabling, but it stands to reason that you do not need the huge rod it calls for.

Yes, the yacht club members have periodically wacked off big branches which has led to serious rot. Overall the tree has responded well with reaction wood.

I have a haven grip for pulling cable, unfortunately, it does not work well with the aircraft cable as it can kink it. I keep meaning to get a chicago grip.

How much trunk/branch diameter can you lag thread before the friction makes it impractical.

 

[treeseer]

The BMP's were not clear on what rod diameter to use conjunction with cabling, but it stands to reason that you do not need the huge rod it calls for.

Ye sthere is a ton of overkill in the BMP, and runnin gthe numbers shows it. Dave the BMP's seem to agree with you--they recommend installing the rod above the crack before the rods through the stem, which agrees with your cable-first approach.

As jomoco agrees it is key to see how the fibers react during the work and you guys have more experience than I so I am jus tlooking at the books and opcorn:

 

[jomoco]

I plan on drilling a rod above the split, through the branch on the left continued through the main trunk on the right. About 6 feet in all. I do not have the ansi 300 in front of me but I believe on wood >40" diameter, they want 7/8 rod! This as around 40" diameter. The BMP's were not clear on what rod diameter to use conjunction with cabling, but it stands to reason that you do not need the huge rod it calls for.

Yes, the yacht club members have periodically wacked off big branches which has led to serious rot. Overall the tree has responded well with reaction wood.

I have a haven grip for pulling cable, unfortunately, it does not work well with the aircraft cable as it can kink it. I keep meaning to get a chicago grip.

How much trunk/branch diameter can you lag thread before the friction makes it impractical.

Your pic shows multiple leaders Mitchell, and I assume the crack/fault divides them roughly equally.

I have dealt with multi-leader cabling puzzles very successfully in the past by using a cabling ring to tie the leaders together at one central point in the absence of a dominant single main trunk.

Something to consider perhaps on this tree, particularly since it is on the shoreline and subject to onshore daily winds.

jomoco

 

[treevet]

Is there the opportunity to box in the cable system Mitchell?

There is no limitation to how wide you can go when lag threading the bolt in with a pipe wrench. Good to remember to put the bolt and washer on first as some of the threads will be destroyed by wrenching. Also you can just cut off the damaged portion.

Are you doing this rope and saddle. Drill, 4 foot bit, maybe stand on a ladder while tied in or is it too high. That is some tough duty. Crane would be nice if no bucket access.

 

[treeseer]

I have dealt with multi-leader cabling puzzles very successfully in the past by using a cabling ring to tie the leaders together at one central point in the absence of a dominant single main trunk.

is the attached your pic?

 

[jomoco]

is the attached your pic?

Not my pics, or work, but it is exactly what I'm talking about, it accommodates an even or odd number of leaders/cables, I call it a cabling ring, a drop forged steel cabling ring.

Bingo.

jomoco

 

[treevet]

Those are probably good for some applications and a boxed in system .....good for some other applications. Get a lot of lateral movement with the hub system. Boxed in leaders cannot move side to side.

 

[Mitchell]

Still not done

I like the idea of the ring. Would not have worked well here as the branches fan out horizontally after rising from the split. Perhaps the ring could be tied into the main truck with a heavier cable the smaller ones extending from that at about in basically the same direction [20 degree angles from each other]. It would save on drilling the tree more then once.
The tree actually does have a main leader [the pics earlier with the vertical rot with reaction wood]. I sent the cables back up to to it. Ill throw a few more pics into the mix.

This is why I did not get much work done. 4th largest snow fall for our area in recorded history. So much for global warming, check out the poor palm tree on the left and the very weeping sequoia in the middle.

The split opened another inch; I expected to see this side on the ground with the tonnes of extra weight it was bearing. Just a few more broken tips...

The picture is a bit deceptive, but the branches curl out horizontally. The other side of the split has most of the tree that continues up. The big branch in the for ground is attached well lower down. Of the 3 branches I cabled the one on the right and the one on the left. The third cable drops down to a branch on the opposite side [similarly positioned but bigger then the one in the for ground here].

I returned on the 24th to install the rod. I snapped this pic looking up at the installed cables on the main trunk. Not a great pic but it was freezing rain day. I incrementally pushed 5000 lbs of pull into the come along, however the split would only close the extra inch it settled in the snow loading. I tightened up the cables more then I normally would. I figure the removed snow load will ease the tension; extra guess work I did not need. I felt delaying might truly cause the tree to fail when it started to rain and the snow captured the extra rain weight as well.

The last pic is the 7/8" ships auger going through the branch into the main trunk. I never did get the rod through as I finally gave up when I lost all sensation in my fingers and could barely work the blakes let alone the rod, [it was also xmass eve]. Unfourtantly, because I used auger extensions to get the 5 feet needed and they have some slop the holes did not line up that well with 20" between holes in the crotch. I should have drilled the first hole then made a mark with the rod before pushing through. Ironically, the auger came out right by itself and I wrongly adjusted the entry point on the 2cnd trunk by eye. Its out just under a inch. I will either have to re drill, use 5/8 rod, or thread the 3/4 rod through the last three feet. Opinions?

 

[B-Edwards]

With a 5 foot vertical split, I used triangulated ropes and blocks, and a helper to get the tree relatively upright again while cinching the main trunk with ropes as I stood it up.

The lowest rod went in first and tightened, then the next rod 18-20 inches higher up the trunk and tightened, then the last rod right where the crack initiated and tightened, the cable last.

It pretty much has to go back together the same way it came apart. If you did the cable first you would get bowing of the split and misaligned wood and rods subsequently.

Atleast that's how I did that particular split elm 15 years ago. !/4 inch cable and 1/2 inch rods.

jomoco

This makes sence to me. I wouldnt think it would matter how large or small the tree is that along these lines would have a better outcome as tissue would be closer to how it grew and not be stressed by being pulled back in an un-natural way. I cant really tell how big this tree is from the pictures and wonder why not a Cobra system on a tree like this after the the thru bolts?

 

[jomoco]

I like the idea of the ring. Would not have worked well here as the branches fan out horizontally after rising from the split. Perhaps the ring could be tied into the main truck with a heavier cable the smaller ones extending from that at about in basically the same direction [20 degree angles from each other]. It would save on drilling the tree more then once.
The tree actually does have a main leader [the pics earlier with the vertical rot with reaction wood]. I sent the cables back up to to it. Ill throw a few more pics into the mix.

This is why I did not get much work done. 4th largest snow fall for our area in recorded history. So much for global warming, check out the poor palm tree on the left and the very weeping sequoia in the middle.

The split opened another inch; I expected to see this side on the ground with the tonnes of extra weight it was bearing. Just a few more broken tips...

The picture is a bit deceptive, but the branches curl out horizontally. The other side of the split has most of the tree that continues up. The big branch in the for ground is attached well lower down. Of the 3 branches I cabled the one on the right and the one on the left. The third cable drops down to a branch on the opposite side [similarly positioned but bigger then the one in the for ground here].

I returned on the 24th to install the rod. I snapped this pic looking up at the installed cables on the main trunk. Not a great pic but it was freezing rain day. I incrementally pushed 5000 lbs of pull into the come along, however the split would only close the extra inch it settled in the snow loading. I tightened up the cables more then I normally would. I figure the removed snow load will ease the tension; extra guess work I did not need. I felt delaying might truly cause the tree to fail when it started to rain and the snow captured the extra rain weight as well.

The last pic is the 7/8" ships auger going through the branch into the main trunk. I never did get the rod through as I finally gave up when I lost all sensation in my fingers and could barely work the blakes let alone the rod, [it was also xmass eve]. Unfourtantly, because I used auger extensions to get the 5 feet needed and they have some slop the holes did not line up that well with 20" between holes in the crotch. I should have drilled the first hole then made a mark with the rod before pushing through. Ironically, the auger came out right by itself and I wrongly adjusted the entry point on the 2cnd trunk by eye. Its out just under a inch. I will either have to re drill, use 5/8 rod, or thread the 3/4 rod through the last three feet. Opinions?

Hey Mitchell, you make me feel like a wuss for whining bout cablin in the rain!

Ofcourse I'm tempted to jump in with lots of advice, but the pics are somewhat deceptive and I think I'll just keep my mouth shut and trust in your good judgement and firsthand eyeballing of the patient in question.

If you do go with a cabling ring, make sure that it is supported by cables alone, no rods or eyebolts on the ring itself, just cables that can move dynamically in the wind.

More high quality pics please!

jomoco