In Or Out (Cabling and bracing a large damaged tree)

[John Paul Sanborn]

I will side with the longer hole to keep the hardwear in line with the applied force.

I had planned on recomending wind firming down the road; with some tip reduction now.

I do not think this would be a problem, since you are increasing the SULE, not saving the tree indefinably, though you are not defining the SULE now, your inspections will. Semiannual? Wow, i hope it gets you more work too! "as long as your paying me..."

 

[jomoco]

Hey Mitchell!

Kinda hard tu cable in the wind and rain, aint it?

jomoco

 

[treevet]

I will side with the longer hole to keep the hardwear in line with the applied force"

There probably should be some compensating from both sides at times when dropping a cable below the main support. A little more angle away from perpendicular and a little bend away from perfectly straight. Less wound, still almost a straight pull.

Never seen the eye head pulled off of a 5/8 forged eyebolt tho. As for the rigguy it almost has to be straight or it will tear vascular tissue and continue to leave a cankered area with movement I would guess.

 

[S Mc]

For us, a cabling situation is a last resort. It defines a tree which has been compromised and yet the owner does not wish to have it removed. The standard protocol which we follow on cabling jobs is to prune first. So we always look at, what can be mitigated by pruning? This practice often forces activity back into the tree releasing dormant/latent buds thereby creating more interior growth. Which will assist in CODIT and ultimately result in a stronger tree.

Cabling situations take the tree out of the perfect scenario we would like to adhere to for pruning practices and puts it into a situation all its own. If there are targets, then it ups the game.

In landscape trees, IMHO, discoloration of interior wood is a nonissue. (Please remember discoloration and decay are not necessarily synonomous.) If we are cabling, we are buying time. It is good to think about the least damage possible, but stabilization of the tree needs to be accomplished. This will require some invasive technique. It is less traumatic to the tree than a basal cut.

This particular tree has been crying out for limb reduction for years. In a natural setting, cypress will self-destruct during storms and go on ticking. And you can leave them alone and let them. They will survive.

However, when we interject the fact that there are people and structures involved, we have to rethink things. We see two problems all the time: over-pruning and the total fear of pruning. Pruning practices need to be as flexible as the situation requires. This is where knowing your species and what they can tolerate are so important.

Sylvia

 

[jomoco]

I agree with Treevet's criticism of the wire stop's weak points.

And will add that it also separates the cable by friction, this in turn compromises the galvinizing on the cable at the critical termination juncture point.

Any wind side loading that would normally be compensated for at the thimble eyebolt ring in a standard application, would be transferred to the cable itself using wire stops, bending the cable everytime the wind hits at that angle, often repeatedly. It is my opinion that overtime this will weaken the cable.

I hope to be posting pics of what happens to ungalvinized cabling hardware over time here very shortly in my own cabling thread, if it ever stops raining here again in socal.

Some of the hardware in your pics did not appear to be galvinized to me Mitchell, all thread rodding generally isn't.

jomoco

 

[treevet]

For us, a cabling situation is a last resort. It defines a tree which has been compromised and yet the owner does not wish to have it removed. The standard protocol which we follow on cabling jobs is to prune first. So we always look at, what can be mitigated by pruning? This practice often forces activity back into the tree releasing dormant/latent buds thereby creating more interior growth. Which will assist in CODIT and ultimately result in a stronger tree.

Cabling situations take the tree out of the perfect scenario we would like to adhere to for pruning practices and puts it into a situation all its own. If there are targets, then it ups the game.

In landscape trees, IMHO, discoloration of interior wood is a nonissue. (Please remember discoloration and decay are not necessarily synonomous.) If we are cabling, we are buying time. It is good to think about the least damage possible, but stabilization of the tree needs to be accomplished. This will require some invasive technique. It is less traumatic to the tree than a basal cut.

This particular tree has been crying out for limb reduction for years. In a natural setting, cypress will self-destruct during storms and go on ticking. And you can leave them alone and let them. They will survive.

However, when we interject the fact that there are people and structures involved, we have to rethink things. We see two problems all the time: over-pruning and the total fear of pruning. Pruning practices need to be as flexible as the situation requires. This is where knowing your species and what they can tolerate are so important.

Sylvia

I agree with the cabling as a last resort and agree with your pruning concepts (no fear of pruning here), also agree the tree needed remedial pruning for years. But as for now.....where is the hurry? The sail has been taken out with the loss of canopy and as for the invigorative aspects of pruning along with other goals, the fact that the tree is mature, it has lost mass storage space and is to be full steam ahead in the compart. biz. Now is not the time to challenge it more IMHO. BTW, you are correct....discolored tissue is not nec. decayed tissue but it IS dead tissue and incapable of storage.

A few posts on this thread use the term/initials CODIT when referring to compartmentalization. We need to define our terms so they are universally accepted. "CODIT is a MODEL of compartmentalization. CODIT is an acronym for Compartmentalization of Decay in Trees. Do not mix the model with the biological process." Straight from the horses mouth (Shigo). Not trying to be a stickler, just helpful.

"If we are cabling, we are buying time" (Sylvia). Isn't that what we are doing in every and all practices and treatments?

I am in my office today as trees are covered with ice, not because I want to be. But couldn't think of a thing I would rather be doing than discussing trees
(passion I believe Guy called it) with respected peers.

 

[S Mc]

A few posts on this thread use the term/initials CODIT when referring to compartmentalization. We need to define our terms so they are universally accepted. "CODIT is a MODEL of compartmentalization. CODIT is an acronym for Compartmentalization of Decay in Trees. Do not mix the model with the biological process." Straight from the horses mouth (Shigo). Not trying to be a stickler, just helpful.

I had to chuckle here, Treevet, because it actually drives me nuts when CODIT is used as a verb when it is an acronym for a process. However, I succumbed to the popular trend with the rationale that people would understand the intent of the sentence. I do agree with and understand your quote from Shigo.

The impression of a sense of urgency here is generated by an arborist going out in horrendous weather, after dark, and trying to implement mitigating efforts. If there was no urgency, then I would be telling the client we would see them when the weather was better as this generally allows for work performed safer and many times more thoroughly. And, again, standard protocol calls for pruning prior to cabling.

The broken limbs appear to still be hung up in the tree and in fact, attached. Again, this is very typical of this species. They could stay there for years in a natural setting. However, this is not a natural setting. From the pictures we have been shown, we don't see a reduction of risk of continued breakage. Which is the issue being addressed. Many of the remaining limbs have bad junctions also (again very typical of this species). Reducing heavy, long limbs may preclude future breakage. You also need to be aware of the natural structural co-dependence between limbs and not over thin (hence the recommendation of reduction rather than thinning).

Hopefully, everything we do for trees in our practices and treatment buy them time. However, with cabling we are buying time on a more immediate basis and, in fact, creating an artificial dependence in the structure.

Sylvia

 

[Mitchell]

great information

I agree with Treevet's criticism of the wire stop's weak points.

I hope to be posting pics of what happens to ungalvinized cabling hardware over time here very shortly in my own cabling thread, if it ever stops raining here again in socal.

Some of the hardware in your pics did not appear to be galvinized to me Mitchell, all thread rodding generally isn't.

jomoco

I appreciate the feedback I try to research before I precede but there is no substitute for experience.

Jomoco it is a gas cabling in crappy weather! It rarely ever gets cold enough for snow, whats worse is it's windy hovering around the freezing mark so your cold and wet; crappy timing for me. Yes I know poor me, lots of you live and work in minus a lot in the rest of the continent. I did my time in "not uncommon to be -40 with out wind chill Winnipeg" and I find this weather to be worse actually.

I was planning on switching to wire stops, I think I will examine that a bit more first. I was delighted thinking about the end of my splicing days though...

I would be very interested in your pics of ungalvanized hardware and the time frames in question.

I have some stainless but the rest is galvanized, currently my larger rods are cold galvanized and appear shiny if that's what you noticed. My 1/2" rods are hot dipped galvanized and appear dull. I understand hot dipped is a thicker coating. Although I have researched it only superficially, my feelings are unless you are using stainless [quality stainless around the ocean] they are going to rust out anyways your just buying a bit of time. Alternatively I understand you can coat the hardware in roofing tar and it will be almost as good as stainless.

Previously, I had thought of using some stainless and glavanized gear but I believe the stainless will cannibalize the zinc on the galv stuff. I might be better off with raw steel then mixing different metals. Another note on galv; I have noticed that quality varies I suspect it is poor quality control from Chinese suppliers. I generally use higher rated gear then the BMP's call for so I have some rust, hardware angle off a bit fudge room.

Codit as a verb, I know, I use it to convey the idea and save typing time!

Yes there was a great sense of urgency from them, However after climbing around last night I don't think it is warranted. I will get it done but not with a head lamp ha ha!

Prune before cable. Yes I suppose if one were to cable this year and remove enough weight next year, they might have to re tighten the cable. In this case I don't think it will be an issue.

 

[Mitchell]

splicing question

I have been using the Canadian [Flemish] eye splice on my 3/8 Aircraft cable. I was going to swag it but the tool was 500 bucks or something like that. Any thoughts on that. My research indicated the cable should fail before the splice would. I have not used EHS cable or dead end grips.

 

[jomoco]

I appreciate the feedback I try to research before I precede but there is no substitute for experience.

Alternatively I understand you can coat the hardware in roofing tar and it will be almost as good as stainless.

Interesting and keen observation Mitchell.

I was just thinking about the eyebolts I use a hacksaw on to cut off excess threaded bolt from after achieving proper cable tension, I generally use a hammer to mushroom the very end to ensure the nut can't back off.

Now if you want to go full bore deluxe in terms of weatherizing your installed hardware, I've determined that some epoxy/tar/JBweld should be used on these mushroomed bolt/nut terminations.

If anyone knows of a more suitable/easier/practical means of weatherizing raw exposed steel terminations in trees, please, chime right in now.

I've wussed out 3 days in a row here, I don't do cablin in the wind and rain without a doubling of my pay!

jomoco

 

[jomoco]

I have been using the Canadian [Flemish] eye splice on my 3/8 Aircraft cable. I was going to swag it but the tool was 500 bucks or something like that. Any thoughts on that. My research indicated the cable should fail before the splice would. I have not used EHS cable or dead end grips.

Try the 7 strand EHS cable with the dead end grips, it's the strongest as well as being relatively easy to install.

It requires precisely measured and cut cable lengths, I like to go over a bit and cut to suit in the tree, this means high quality cable cutters.

jomoco

 

[Mitchell]

I will likely go that route

Try the 7 strand EHS cable with the dead end grips, it's the strongest as well as being relatively easy to install.

It requires precisely measured and cut cable lengths, I like to go over a bit and cut to suit in the tree, this means high quality cable cutters.

jomoco

I was planning on going with the rig guy stuff when I used up my current cable but I will revisit that. I thought the aircraft cable was stronger; perhaps just in the smaller diameters it is.

I was going to slap some roofing tar on this job as the target value is high and the tree is essentially on the beach.

I only do a half dozen cabling jobs a year, so few people opt to keep their trees when faced with removal vs retention. In fairness, being as I mainly work the urban part of town and we live in [or what was] a rain forest most properties change little with the removal of a few large trees.

I'll be heading out soon myself [not at double pay though ha ha], when my wife gets back in half an hour [that was an hour and a bit ago] I need the 4x4 unfortunately to get up the icy road.

 

[Mitchell]

compressed cambium

I would not be inclined to strap the stem. It is not invasive but on the other hand conductive tissue will be compressed and made less effective or even killed. Opportunist, successive attacks of pathogens follow

How might this damage show up in terms of signs or symptoms.

I wanted to pick your brains about this topic. I will be going back this season to help inspect the Ariel platforms and re rig the cables at the zip line course which I helped build two years ago. The trees have three steel collars [collars bolted to themselves] around the stem in a row up the tree. Top for the incoming cable and guys out to the middle collar and its platform, then the lower collar accepts metal legs from the outside of the platform to bear weight. The collars are bolted tight enough to themselves that they do not slip.

This is obviously putting serious compression on the cambium. As you can imagine 1000's of people come through so safety of the engineering was the focus. They are trying to be "green" about it that's why they opted not to drill when possible.

They have a good consulting arb [the fellow I call when in doubt] However I wonder if he or anyone understands the long term effects this might have.

 

[jomoco]

How might this damage show up in terms of signs or symptoms.

I wanted to pick your brains about this topic. I will be going back this season to help inspect the Ariel platforms and re rig the cables at the zip line course which I helped build two years ago. The trees have three steel collars [collars bolted to themselves] around the stem in a row up the tree. Top for the incoming cable and guys out to the middle collar and its platform, then the lower collar accepts metal legs from the outside of the platform to bear weight. The collars are bolted tight enough to themselves that they do not slip.

This is obviously putting serious compression on the cambium. As you can imagine 1000's of people come through so safety of the engineering was the focus. They are trying to be "green" about it that's why they opted not to drill when possible.

They have a good consulting arb [the fellow I call when in doubt] However I wonder if he or anyone understands the long term effects this might have.

I've often thought about the optimum engineering for a full blown treehouse.

It needs to bend and move without any circumferential/cambial strangulation.

Throughbolts, cables and inline compression springs, kinda like a very taught trampoline.

Wouldn't it be cool to evolve back into the trees with a few modern conveniences?

Any picks of your zip line platforms Mitchell?

jomoco

 

[Mitchell]

pics

I've often thought about the optimum engineering for a full blown treehouse.

It needs to bend and move without any circumferential/cambial strangulation.

Throughbolts, cables and inline compression springs, kinda like a very taught trampoline.

Wouldn't it be cool to evolve back into the trees with a few modern conveniences?

Any picks of your zip line platforms Mitchell?

jomoco

I dont think so I never used to pack a camera, Im trying to take lots of pics now but I keep smashing them so I'm looking for a sturdy inexpensive one. I will be back at the course in the new year and snap a few pics.

Of note is, amazingly they have found strayed strands on the 5/8 [i believe] galv cable. Some runs are 1000 feet so the cost to replace early is hurting. I wonder if EHS would be better.

 

[jomoco]

I dont think so I never used to pack a camera, Im trying to take lots of pics now but I keep smashing them so I'm looking for a sturdy inexpensive one. I will be back at the course in the new year and snap a few pics.

Of note is, amazingly they have found strayed strands on the 5/8 [i believe] galv cable. Some runs are 1000 feet so the cost to replace early is hurting. I wonder if EHS would be better.

I would consult with a power company pole setter lineman crew foreman.

I have seen 7 strand and dead end grips on their pole guying hardware.

A synthetic urethane pulley wheel seems logical to minimize cable wear on a zip line.

jomoco

 

[Mitchell]

dead end

I would consult with a power company pole setter lineman crew foreman.

I have seen 7 strand and dead end grips on their pole guying hardware.

A synthetic urethane pulley wheel seems logical to minimize cable wear on a zip line.

jomoco

I suggested they change to that type of double pully its a lot cheaper to replace the pulleys then the cable. I think they have had trouble finding such a device; another zip line on the mainland has them made custom which indicates they may not be in circulation. They have to use rated and certified devices which makes the options limited.

The cable they use is not dead ended but wire rope clamped, that's what the engineer wanted, and they had to search around to find any engineer that would consider taking on and signing off on the project. I thought that was interesting as ansi cabling guides frown on it.

 

[Mitchell]

oh yea

I had a thoroughly unproductive day. I have the rod and annon in awaiting cable. The highlight was the raccon I almost cornered. Fortunately I noticed it before I got closer then 10 feet. Even the naturally friendly look of those guys did not hide its displeasure at having to vacate his home.

 

[treevet]

Very astute bringing the attention to the importance of the galvanized hardware and cable Jomoco. Weakest link may be this issue. Bending, crimping etc, or mixing metals will degrade the galv coating (zinc I believe?). As for the roofing tar coating on the threaded rod, I was taught by the big B back in my start to drill the hole 1/16 smaller than the rod and thread it into the hole (pipe wrench with a pipe on the end of it) rather than drill the hole the same size as the rod and bang it in with a hammer which is all I see done these days. I do it old school as it makes for a better grip and may be of little or no consequence if the nuts come off or degrade. Covered in roofing tar, I'm not gonna get that rod thru that hole.

I think thought should be given to cracks possibly formed by the ram's horns where the woundwood is formed around the long decay void. Cracks are responsible for many failures with or without decay involved.

You are right Sylvia, this tree may and prob wood have done just fine left to its own devices if those darn human beings weren't involved in the equation again. No target......no work nec. likely. Long life remaining for this tree despite what we do to (for) it.

 

[jomoco]

Very astute bringing the attention to the importance of the galvanized hardware and cable Jomoco. Weakest link may be this issue. Bending, crimping etc, or mixing metals will degrade the galv coating (zinc I believe?). As for the roofing tar coating on the threaded rod, I was taught by the big B back in my start to drill the hole 1/16 smaller than the rod and thread it into the hole (pipe wrench with a pipe on the end of it) rather than drill the hole the same size as the rod and bang it in with a hammer which is all I see done these days. I do it old school as it makes for a better grip and may be of little or no consequence if the nuts come off or degrade. Covered in roofing tar, I'm not gonna get that rod thru that hole.

I think thought should be given to cracks possibly formed by the ram's horns where the woundwood is formed around the long decay void. Cracks are responsible for many failures with or without decay involved.

You are right Sylvia, this tree may and prob wood have done just fine left to its own devices if those darn human beings weren't involved in the equation again. No target......no work nec. likely. Long life remaining for this tree despite what we do to (for) it.

To clarify my suggestion Treevet, I was only suggesting covering the hacksawed and mushroomed eyebolt end and nut with tar/jbweld, not the entire eyebolt itself.

I've never seen a drop forged galvinized steel eyebolt fail or even degrade very much. And I've seen some pretty old hardware and cables over my career.

jomoco