Injection systems

[tprosser]

You are correct - it was mostly from my conversations with Dan Herms.

Injection with these solvents causes too much internal injury to be a long term solution. Even every 2 years. Protection is all about getting enough active evenly distributed in the tree. Injections will certainly get it there faster, but soil applied will tend to get more even coverage and the buildup is definitely there. 2 Applications at the high rate are needed the first year. Then after that it is 1 application per year. This has already worked extremely well for us on two lined chestnut borer and bronze birch borer. Smitleys research also shows it seems to work as well on this pest.

 

[ATH]

You are correct - it was mostly from my conversations with Dan Herms.

Thanks for the follow-up. I'd definately trust Herms more than Bayer. Like I said, I just wish the presentation I sat in on would have dealt more with some of the alternatives. It was kinda focused on one product and that always makes me wonder...

 

[tprosser]

Yea it would have been better if it wasn't such a commercial

 

[arbordoctor]

Injection systems vs. pentra-bark

I am conferring with a couple people who are doing a lot of work with pentra-bark on everything from imicloprid and safari to cambistat, and even round-up for invasives. It was, I believe, first used for the treatment of sudden oak death. A lot of use with Agri-phos for various diseases including apple scab.

The beauty is that there is no injection involved. Several arborists I know have used it with varying degrees of success, although I have heard very good reports from some. I think there is still a lot of trial and error going on. I have been using it for a couple years. While I am cautiously optimistic it is hard to properly evaluate in a field situation.

I would appreciate any thoughts, experiences, etc.

Ron
Cincinnati, OH
member ASCA, ISA, TCIA, ONLA, ISA OH 5177A

PS: Re: Science gave us airplanes and skyscrapers. But it took religion to bring them together. FALSE RELIGION, THAT IS. I am the way, the truth, and the life. Nobody comes to the father except by me. JC. It's all about faith, hope, and love.

 

[tprosser]

Bark Penetrating surfactants

Our company teamed up with Bartlett the last two summers to do research on this. Unfortunately we spent a sizable amount of our budget because we were so excited about the possibilities. I will list in bullet points why we dropped this method using pentrabark.

1. Pentra bark cannot be over-sprayed - it kills the grass or leaves if it lands on them

2. We did get minimal entry into the tree with imidicloprid and more with acephate. However, it was unpredictable. Thick barked trees had very poor intake. Acephate by itself seemed to work as well as with the pentrabark additive.

3. The trees became discolored where the material was sprayed. We felt this to be unacceptable.

4. Bruce Fraedrich at Bartlett tried different fungicides and reported zero results with apple scab and other diseases (I cannot remember what - but he would tell you if you called)

We learned some other interesting things that I will not go into here and we may actually attempt to formulate something in the future. But it was so disappointing to us because we entered the study so optimistically that we have moved onto looking at other tree care solutions.

I hope this helps. I would be happy to discuss if you wanted to call me and I would love to hear about other peoples success and what they may be doing. However, I think the bark discoloration could be a large hurdle as clients would not like that.

 

[ATH]

I live on Long Island, where the water table is very high. Therefore soil injections can be risky and in some cases illegal, I think. Trunk injections are the way to go around here unless you want the DEC and the EPA breathing down your neck!

After some follow-up reading in the research, I kinda put the idea of injecting on the back burner.

Revisiting this now, as I was at a site today with a high water table and some ash trees within 20 yards of a lake.

Legality aside (I don't think that is issue here, but I'll check into it more), I'd be interested in other thoughts on soil treatments vs. injection in these circumstances.

FYI, the label says: "The use of this chemical in areas where the soils are permeable, particularly where the water table is shallow, may result in groundwater contamination".

This is in clay soil, and I am more worried about surface water...so I am not sure this applies. There is nothing else on the label concerning the question.


Thanks!

 

[tprosser]

ATH,
What are you trying to accomplish with these trees?

Are there any specific issues you are seeing that you need to remedy?

 

[ATH]

hahaha, I guess that is some important imformation to inculde!!

There are a couple of nice/healthy ash trees on the property. Emerald Ash Borer is in the county, but not yet in this neighborhood. In such circumstances, if people want to plan on keeping the trees long-term, I think they should begin imidacloprid treatments now.

 

[tprosser]

Treating EAB

The purpose of protecting trees for EAB is to get enough Imidicloprid into the tree in a way that will give even and complete distribution. If there are no symptoms and trees are not succumbing close by. Then I would for sure do the soil application.

Research in Michigan shows that it takes 2 soil applications at the high rate (In a shallow furrow next to the trunk) to accomplish getting enough product in the tree, this can be done all in the first year followed with one application each year thereafter.

Injection in my opinion should only be used to get material in the tree fast. The wounding creates a dilemma. Also, Research showed that with the injection methodology studied, that the best distribution they got was around 70% (with injections). At least thats what they measured when they sampled treated trees. Combine this with the wounds that are created - and the answer seems to present itself pretty clearly.

Since imidicloprid does not move in the soil - I think the pond is safe, I would choose soil application.

Note - We have found that if the injections are done on the root flares of the tree we are able to get much higher than 70% distribution into the crown. All the treatments studied in Michigan that were injections were trunk injections.

 

[ATH]

Thanks Tom.

I had kinda settled on soil application for EAB preventative treatments. The question I had was soil application so close to water. I appreciate what you have provided here - I didn't think imidacloprid was known to move much, but since thetreewiseman had mentioned not using soil applications because of those concerns, I was curious.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

With the rapid uptake issue of imidicloprid, I keep hearing this and wonder why a one time application of something fast acting like Metasytox (Demeton-S-Methyl) would not be prefferable to a basal ( I prefer it to the term trunk injection, since that leads people to do it too high)?

Though i do agree that it is a nasty compound, it will knock down anything in the tree allowing the imidicloprid a chance to translocate.

 

[tprosser]

Other soil products

I think you are thinking down the right path.
We are looking at other products now for exactly that purpose.

Metasystox has EPA issues since it is so toxic. But there are other possibilities such as Acephate - which is not currently registered. We are working to change this though.

If you have any other ideas of soil applied insecticides please let us know at Rainbow Scientific and we can test them and try and get them registered if they work.

 

[Thetreewisemen]

Rhizo Fuel

I know it's not what we we're currently discussing, but this coming season I'm really gonna be pushing a new product for me.....Rhizo Fuel. This bio-stimulant product IMO is now the way to go when treating stressed, newly planted or urban trees in general. I'd be happy to share any pertinent info on this...cost, active ingredient, etc.

 

[ATH]

I know it's not what we we're currently discussing, but this coming season I'm really gonna be pushing a new product for me.....Rhizo Fuel. This bio-stimulant product IMO is now the way to go when treating stressed, newly planted or urban trees in general. I'd be happy to share any pertinent info on this...cost, active ingredient, etc.

I have seen previously enough to be intrigued, but not sold.

Maybe a good topic for a new thread. I always find it interesting to hear users opinions along with the data.