Is it legal to tie into a cranes loadline? Where to find the right information on it

[stihlboy]

Oh, I thought you said crane.
I didn't know Harbor Freight or is that Northern Hydraulics sold fishing poles that big.

Lancaster, let me think.
Oh, the place where all the rolling equipment is pulled by horses.
Now are you talking about the thing with ropes that lifts the hay up into the barn with the big wheel the horse walks in, or has some Dutchie rigged an A frame onto his wagon?

Of course everybody who's a crane op in Lancaster drives their own. The horse won't move for everybody and his cousin.

Only place I know of there is Dorney Park. Do you operate a ride at Dorney Park?

fdoberman, Last warning! i dont like the way you degrade others. it will not be tolerated

 

[superjunior]

fdoberman, why are you in a tree care forum anyway? Do you do a lot of removals with YOUR crane? just curious..

 

[tree md]

fdoberman, why are you in a tree care forum anyway? Do you do a lot of removals with YOUR crane? just curious..

Because he's a troll. He's they type of dude that sits in his climate controlled cab with a pair of Raybans on because he thinks it makes him look cool and goes through the same motions day in and day out thinking to himself what a great op he is. Believe me, I have met many like him. Don't even waste your breath, talking to him is like talking to a stone wall. He's already got everything figured out.

Back to the static loads doberman or whatever TF your name is. Cable up, cable down, you've got a lot of "technical" rigging to oversee.

 

[2treeornot2tree]

fdoberman, why are you in a tree care forum anyway? Do you do a lot of removals with YOUR crane? just curious..

He dont do tree work cause he holds the licence remember! he just calls 911. I would hate to have to show him up running his own crane, but maybe its time for a good old crane rodeo. I will bring my horses and some hay. Can you check my tire pressure for me?

 

[dbl612]

stats

Can you spell GROVE TMS 9000E?

GROVE is a division of Manitouac.

Fuel mileage sucketh!

89,972# according to the manufacturer, I've never bothered to weigh it though.

BTW, you're right, I don't drive it, that's the oiler's job. He drives from the nontilting cab under the headblock when the boom is collapsed. I just go round and round all day.

can you spell manitowoc ? thats the approx weight of the crane w? no cwt. we have no doubt that you go round and round all day.

 

[treeslayer]

As a person who holds a Crane License in NY State let me splain it to you from my point of view.

My License, MY RULES backed by the machine owner's rules based on his insurance carrier's rules! If I can see the hook and you tie on the way it will play out is I lock the house, the boom and the lifting line as I dial 911 to have the Fire Department come out to rescue the mental defective entangled in my lifting line. There won't be any arguing about it!

If I can't see the hook and you tie into my lifting line the oiler or person spotting the hook better tell me right quick so I can lock the house, the boom and the lifting line as I dial 911 to have the Fire Department come out to rescue the mental defective entangled in my lifting line.

I'll also guarantee you that you and your company will go on a list of customers who will NEVER again get crane service.

Yes I do know you're the last of the cowboys, know everything there is to know about knots, shackles, slings, ropes, nonmetalic straps and of course the machine I'm sitting in because I HOLD THE LICENSE! You also know exactly what the hunk of wood you're about to load onto my machine weighs to the pound, what my boom angle is, how much I can pick at that angle and how much groundpressure I'll be putting on the outrigger carrying the majority of the pick. Again, I HOLD THE LICENSE!

I spent a few hundred hours qualifying to test for that License, and I ain't about to loose it for one pick that went down the crapper.

You don't like the way I do things? I HOLD THE LICENSE! Guess who wins the argument?

Fortunately there are plenty of cranes available to be bought thanks to the current lack of demand. Since you probably don't want to bother getting a License, I suggest you buy a truck mounted machine.

Best of luck to you.

What a pussi. :hmm3grin2orange:

Get the fock off the commercial climbers page dipstick.

 

[treeslayer]

Larry, you back in Birmingham yet?:msp_w00t:
jeez, they can't catch a break, huh?

 

[tree md]

Not back Dave. I did get a call last week for a 10 pine removal. Still getting calls from there. My aunt said there were trees down all over last week.

 

[ROPECLIMBER]

I read all the bantering and "my stick is bigger" post and still no awnser to the original question of this thread, When I ride the Ball for the purpose of securring slings to a weak or dead stem that other wise is not acomplishable, is it legal through ANSI and /or OSHA. I spent a lot of time reading on OSHA site, and could not find the up to date answer,my last post has all the links to this reading,
Paul

 

[VA-Sawyer]

This fdoberman is really something special! In this thread he claims to be a 'bigtime' crane operator, yet in a thread in the Heating forum he claims to be a 'world class welder' and is currently retired. You can find a link to that thread, in the thread here about the elephant. What a joke.

To the OP, I understand your confusion. I hope the upcoming Z133 gives a little more info.
Rick

 

[Blakesmaster]

I read all the bantering and "my stick is bigger" post and still no awnser to the original question of this thread, When I ride the Ball for the purpose of securring slings to a weak or dead stem that other wise is not acomplishable, is it legal through ANSI and /or OSHA. I spent a lot of time reading on OSHA site, and could not find the up to date answer,my last post has all the links to this reading,
Paul

Then you need to read better. I laid it all out in my first post. The answer you're looking for is yes...and no. ANSI says yes, OSHA says no...kinda. It's not exactly in black and white.

 

[VA-Sawyer]

It's not exactly in black and white.

And that is the problem! We don't like gray areas in tree work. Knots are either tied exactly right, or they are totally wrong. Our cuts are either done right or they are very wrong which can lead to things going wrong. I'm not saying there is only one right knot, just that there is only one way to correctly tie it. We prefer things to be cut and dried, no pun intended.
Climbing rotten trees is a gray area, and we all hate them because of it. ANSI vs. OSHA looks pretty gray to me and I don't like it.
Rick

 

[mattfr12]

And that is the problem! We don't like gray areas in tree work. Knots are either tied exactly right, or they are totally wrong. Our cuts are either done right or they are very wrong which can lead to things going wrong. I'm not saying there is only one right knot, just that there is only one way to correctly tie it. We prefer things to be cut and dried, no pun intended.
Climbing rotten trees is a gray area, and we all hate them because of it. ANSI vs. OSHA looks pretty gray to me and I don't like it.
Rick

then don't do it? i dunno what your saying. no one says you have to do it. you either do or don't. that grey area is pretty much gonna always be their since it has for years.

 

[ROPECLIMBER]

ANSI has standards on approved ways to do it. You can buy the standard from Sherrill, I think it's 20 bucks. Per OSHA, a crane is not allowed to lift a person unless in a man basket or a bosun seat with fall arrest harness. However, tree trimming is exempt from the OSHA standards for cranes. So you must refer to the ANSI. At the end of the day though, OSHA can still show up to your job and cite you for whatever the hell they want, have fun fighting those fines. The problem is that some OSHA inspectors are either unaware of the rules or just don't care. This causes many crane owners and operators to make it their company policy to never allow anyone to ride the ball. I've gone round with my operator in NYS on this for a few years. He will now allow me to ride if there is no other feasible option. IE, I cannot get my bucket to the tree. However, I do not take advantage of this, and usually only get a ride up once or twice depending on the tree. Sucks, but it is what it is.

Ya, I was trying to find it in black and white, found the latest OSHA letter of interpatation saying that,and to follow ANSI Z133.1 industry standards,

 

[Bomber]

I think I saw Doberman-F-er in my gym today.

[video=youtube_share;3FGZvFZdVbk]http://youtu.be/3FGZvFZdVbk[/video]

 

[safetyguy]

This thread is very old but the opinions and information in it are still available for people to see on the internet and there is way too much misinformation that could lead people down the path to disaster. So let me add to all these comments from the so-called "professionals".

First - The licensed crane operator is 100% correct - it's his license and he can indeed stop operations for any reason. The arborists who think he's just arrogant, uninformed on tree work, or they could do without him are just being ignorant. Work with your crane operators.

As for anything found in the ANSI standards it is important to keep in mind that ANSI has NO regulatory authority unless adopted by a regulatory government agency. ANSI standards are known as "consensus" standards rather than "regulatory" standards (the kind government agencies enforce). ANSI standards do contain a lot of very good information and guidance for many specific things especially when regulatory agencies like OSHA are silent on a subject.

Within the Federal Code of Regulations, OSHA is very specific about which ANSI standards they incorporate for enforcement (see 21CFR1910.6). But ANSI Z133 is NOT on the OSHA list and therefore cannot be used as justification for riding the hook (at least not at the start of operations - more on that below). However, OSHA is not silent on the subject of riding the hook and they do have something very specific to say about it.

This is directly from a guidance memo issued by the OSHA Directorate of Enforcement Programs and sent out to OSHA Compliance Enforcement Officers June 24, 2021. The memo had a lot to say about "Enforcement Inspection Guidance for Tree Care and Tree Removal Operations" but I'll provide just the part that applies to this thread about riding the hook...

“Among other requirements, the standard prohibits hoisting an individual on the crane load or hook, also known as “riding the hook” (29 CFR § 1910.180(h)(3)(v)). This requirement applies even though the standard for Arboricultural Operations—Safety Requirements, ANSI Z133-2017, §5.7.11, allows the hoisting of personnel into position with a crane. An employer’s reliance on the ANSI standard is not a defense to a violation of § 1910.180(h)(3)(v).”

Note that last sentence specifically pointing out that although the ANSI standard provides their consensus guidance OSHA rejects it and will still issue citations and penalties for violations.

There are only two circumstance where OSHA would give a pass...1) the employer establishes impossibility/infeasibility of complying with the OSHA standards or; 2) the employer can demonstrate a greater hazard would result from complying with the OSHA standards.

So always start with a hazard assessment and ask, 1) "Is the tree safe to climb?" If yes, then climb it using appropriate fall protection. If not safe to climb then ask, 2) "Can an aerial lift be used to position employees?" This means bucket trucks or cherry pickers. Lastly, ask, 3) "Can a platform (basket) suspended from a crane be safely used?" This last option is often disregard before work ever begins primarily due to cost of renting a crane.

So now what? What if you've worked through the hazard assessment, you've asked those questions, and you've come to the conclusion you absolutely have no other safe option but to ride the hook using the crane? Now what? Then, and only then, can someone ride the hook on the crane. And only now can you go by ANSI Z133. And here again is where the licensed crane operator plays a huge role. That crane operator is the last decision maker. If he's not comfortable doing it then it isn't happening. Work together. Leave your egos at the door and be professionals.

If things go bad you'll need to demonstrate you worked through the hazard assessment very thoroughly. Keep in mind you can also bet that insurance companies will have something to say should an incident occur. As for OSHA; in some cases the company leadership (CEO, executive leadership, even managers & supervisors) could actually be arrested and put in handcuffs if they determine there was a significant failure starting at the very top. It is rare to see but I have seen it happen.

So always keep in mind that the rules, regulations, standards and laws exist for a reason - at some point someone was killed or horribly injured. Don't let it be you. Part of being a true professional is also knowing how to do something safe. If that means using a crane platform/basket and it may add another hour of crane time to the job so be it.

FTR I'm Board Certified in safety with over 25 years experience and have seen some terrible things. I've patched up countless injuries. I've loaded seriously injured people into ambulances. I've visited them in hospitals. I've loaded dead bodies of coworkers and friends into a Medical Examiner's vehicle. I've attended funerals for those coworkers and friends who died on the job. And I've met with families every time. It never gets easier. My own uncle was killed on the job. Safety is personal for me and I really do care about every one of you reading this.

Stay safe everyone.